Earnings Labs

Lionheart Holdings (CUB)

Q4 2020 Earnings Call· Wed, Nov 18, 2020

$10.77

-0.28%

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Transcript

Operator

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Cubic Corporation Fourth Quarter and Full Fiscal 2020 Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speakers’ presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to turn the call over to Kirsten Nielsen, Vice President of Investor Relations. You may begin.

Kirsten Nielsen

Analyst

Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining Cubic's webcast. I'm joined today by Brad Feldmann, Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer; and Anshooman Aga, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer. Before we begin, a friendly reminder that our presentation contains forward-looking statements that are made pursuant to the Safe Harbor provisions of the federal securities laws. Our most recent SEC filings include risk factors that could cause the company's actual results to differ materially from our expectations. In addition, we have included non-GAAP financial measures in our discussion. Reconciliations of these non-GAAP financial measures to the most directly comparable GAAP financial measures can be found in today's press release and in the appendix to today's presentation. With that, I'll turn the call over to Brad.

Brad Feldmann

Analyst

Thank you, Kirsten. Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us. I hope you and your loved ones remain healthy and safe. On today's call, I'll discuss the highlights for our fourth quarter and full year performance for fiscal 2020, followed by an update of our strategy. Anshooman will cover the financial results in more detail and discuss the outlook for fiscal 2021. Please turn to slide three. As you saw from our announcement this afternoon, our fourth quarter performance reflects strong execution and a solid finish to the fiscal year. This year brought unprecedented changes with the COVID-19 pandemic altering the way we work and live. Against the backdrop of economic challenges and uncertainty, our 6,000 talented cubes have done an exceptional job delivering mission-critical solutions to our customers, while safeguarding the health of their fellow team members. We are excited about the future as we embark on our recently announced NextCUBIC strategy, which we expect will drive strong organic sales growth and increase adjusted EBITDA margins to the mid-teens by fiscal 2025. Finally, to support long-term sustainable value, we have advanced our ESG priorities this year and reporting on our progress will continue to be an increasingly important area of focus for Cubic. Across the company, we remain guided by our common purpose. Our teams innovate to make a positive difference in peoples' lives. Turning to slide four. I'll briefly cover a few highlights of our results. As we communicated to you on the last earnings call, we expected to see a strong fourth quarter, and we delivered against that expectation by achieving record quarterly sales of $475.4 million, an increase of 1% year-on-year and record adjusted EBITDA of $104.2 million, an increase of 36% year-on-year. We also delivered robust adjusted free cash flow of $87.5 million in…

Anshooman Aga

Analyst

Thank you, Brad, and hello, everyone. Please turn to slide 10 to cover the fourth quarter financial results. We executed very well this quarter with strong year-over-year growth across bookings, adjusted EBITDA, adjusted EPS and adjusted free cash flow. Sales for the fourth quarter were $475.4 million, which was comparable to the prior year and down 4% on an organic basis, reflecting robust growth in Mission Solutions, offset by lower sales from transportation and defense training, which I'll discuss in more detail when we get to the segment results. We continue to experience impacts related to the COVID-19 pandemic, including delayed new orders across all segments and the impact of lower ridership on certain CTS operations and maintenance contracts. Bookings increased 47% to $368 million, driven by Mission Solutions and transportation. Adjusted EBITDA was $104.2 million, up 36% year-over-year, reflecting strong performance in Mission Solutions, including the enterprise license renewal at Pixia and benefits from company-wide cost management initiatives. Adjusted earnings per share were $2.82, up more than 50% year-over-year, primarily reflecting higher adjusted EBITDA and lower tax expense. Adjusted free cash flow was strong at $87.5 million in the fourth quarter, driven by working capital management. Turning to the full year results on slide 11. As Brad mentioned, our book-to-bill ratio was greater than 1 across all segments, with the major drivers of bookings growth being the contract reset with the Boston MBTA and the Chicago upgrade award in transportation as well as air training programs in defense. Backlog grew to $3.7 billion, up 8% year-over-year, and we have an additional $1.3 billion of unused capacity on our key sole source IDIQ contracts. For the full year, sales decreased 1% as reported and 3% on an organic basis. We estimate that the impacts related to COVID-19 totaled up to…

Brad Feldmann

Analyst

Thank you, Anshooman. Turning to Slide 18. We are pleased with our performance and strategic progress this year. We believe that Cubic remains well positioned in our markets to successfully execute our NextCUBIC strategy with clear priorities and significant opportunities to drive growth and operational excellence. Before turning to questions, I want to make one clarification. As you probably know, the Cubic Board adopted a shareholder rights plan in September in response to the rapid accumulation of our stock by Elliott management. At that time, Elliott also expressed an interest in acquiring Cubic. We will not be providing any information on this topic today. We ask that you keep your questions focused on our earnings results and outlook. Thanks for your cooperation in that regard. With that, let's proceed to the Q&A session. Operator?

Operator

Operator

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from Jim Ricchiuti with Needham. Your line is open.

Jim Ricchiuti

Analyst

Hi, good afternoon. Good to hear from you, Brad. Just with respect to the seasonality, the revenues in fiscal 2021. I'm wondering, how we should be thinking about the CTS business? I think we all understand how back-end loaded the defense business can be. But is there any color you can give us on how we might think of the CTS business next year or this year I should say?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst

Jim, I'll let Anshooman address that.

Anshooman Aga

Analyst

Hi, Jim, So seasonality for our transportation business also indicates a lower Q1. We have the Thanksgiving holidays and we have the Christmas holidays, so less working days than we are an engineering company. So Q1, typically a little bit lower from a revenue and profit perspective in CTS. They also ramp up in Q3 and Q4. Also given that, we expect a slow gradual recovery in ridership and the seasonality of our intelligent traffic management business, Trafficware and GRIDSMART is also more summer focused.

Jim Ricchiuti

Analyst

Got it. That's helpful. And just with respect to that, the color you gave on Q1 adjusted EBITDA, anything unusual in that number being roughly flat with the year-ago period? Is there increased COVID headwinds that you're now anticipating for that? Any color on that?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst

Yes, Jim. So obviously, last year, Q1 we had no COVID impact. Going into Q1 of this fiscal year, we have lower ridership and some impacts of COVID. Despite these COVID impacts in Q1, we believe our adjusted EBITDA would be flat to slightly above last year, which shows strong execution across our business and initial benefits from our NextCUBIC initiative.

Jim Ricchiuti

Analyst

Okay. Thanks. I’ll jump back in queue. We can follow up. Thanks.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Jon Raviv with Citi. Your line is open.

Jon Raviv

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Thanks. Good afternoon, everyone. On NextCUBIC, can provide a little more – I know a lot of slides there, but just sort of a big picture, like what – with NextCUBIC, what are some of the things that you're going to start doing that you were not doing before? At the same token, what are some of the things you're going to stop doing than maybe you were doing before? And sort of in that conversation, what's the linearity of that path in mid-teens. You talked about margin growth in FY 2022 – in the year ahead. What’s the linearity of that mid-teens over time? Could we see some step back if you choose to enhance investments in a given year or do you expect it to be relatively linear? Thank you.

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Yes. Hi, this is Brad. We expect the margin expansion to be linear year-on-year over the next five years. So, some of the things that we're focused on, as you noted, we completed the first step already and that was combining the two defense organizations. We did that in September. We're looking at all kinds of things, things like geo-shifting, some of our engineering workforce in CTS. We're looking at rationalizing factories even more. We're looking at reducing cost in the supply chain. We have about 175 initiatives that we're working on over the next two to three years. About half of them are cost related and half of them are revenue-expansion related. And what we're trying to do is make sure that we get the cost savings and do that dovetail with the investments. So, we're very, very excited about the possibility and very savvy about improving the margins of the company while continuing to grow it, and I'll also note that it's not just financial, it also has to do with our culture. You'll note on one of the charts, we talked about cultural transformation, and so there's an organizational health index that we took as a baseline. I might add, we were very high in the second quadrant, and we're going to work our way into the first quadrant. So, we're very excited about this, and appreciate the question.

Jon Raviv

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Thanks Brad. Those were my one and my follow-up right there. Thank you.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Mark Strouse with JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Mark Strouse

Analyst · JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Good afternoon. Thank you very much for taking our questions. So, good to hear that the big five CTS contracts continue to track expectations. Can you give an update, though, to your commentary, I think from the last call, where you talked about some delays in your pipeline projects. Are you seeing any thawing in those conversations with those customers? And kind of a related follow-up to that, in your guidance for fiscal 2021, you've got about 80% visibility from your backlog and your high probability wins. I guess, can you compare that to entering fiscal year 2020? What was that number? And what gives you the confidence that, that other 20% will come in to hit your guidance?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Yes. So, in transportation, as we talked about on the previous call, there were some delays in orders. We continue to see about the same, not much change there. With regard to confidence in the forecast, we're very confident. So, the 80% and I'll let Anshooman talk about if he knows the number of percentage year on year. But we're in a continuing resolution now and as you know, after the election, the Senate Appropriations Committee marked up their bill and we understand people are meeting now to come up with a bill. I don't know if it will be done by December 11 or we'll have another CR, but I expect it will be done in the near term. And so, as you know, we have orders that are connected to that. So, we're pretty confident that we'll have a full budget fairly quickly. Anshooman, do you want to add color on -- more color on confidence, please?

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Sure. Thanks, Mark. So on the 80% in backlog and high probability, the high probability are mainly renewals, follow-ons and program of records where we already have the capacity, a lot of those in the defense side. You can trace them back to the President's budget. The remaining 20%, we have a very strong pipeline, not to say those aren't high probability. Those are also high probabilities, but there are a lot of smaller book-to-bill orders, for example, our Trafficware and Gridsmart. The time from a booking to shipment could be four to six weeks. And that's a $100 million business right there. So there's very strong visibility. And actually this year, the visibility is slightly higher than we had last year at this time. Given the fact that we were in the process of certain renegotiations of the Boston contract, et cetera, where the timing was a little to be determined. So we feel very strongly going into next year about our prospects.

Mark Strouse

Analyst · JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Okay. That's very helpful. Thank you. And then just one quick follow-up Anshooman. A lot of moving parts in CTS this year. With New York transitioning from design-build into O&M, can you just talk about the revenue profile? I mean, you've already talked about the seasonality, I guess, to Jim's question, but do you expect growth in that segment this year?

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Yes, we expect growth in both our CTS and our new CMPS segments this year from a top line perspective.

Mark Strouse

Analyst · JPMorgan. Your line is open.

Okay. Simple enough. Thank you very much.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Ken Herbert with Canaccord. Your line is open.

Ken Herbert

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Hi. Good afternoon.

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Hi, Ken.

Ken Herbert

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Hey, Brad. I just wanted to follow-up on that question on the 2021 outlook. The guidance implies at the midpoint, sort of 6.5% to 7% top line growth. CTS was, obviously, basically flattish this year. Is it fair to assume that while it may grow in 2021, we continue to see stronger growth out of the new CMPS segment, or how should we think about that growth by segment next year or in fiscal 2021?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

As Anshooman said, there'll be growth in both segments. And as you know, we have very large backlog. So it's just a function of where those contracts are in the -- their percent complete path. Anshooman, do you want to add to that?

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Yes. Ken, we don't give segment guidance, but we do expect good growth in our CTS business this year. And I think both our businesses will perform well from a growth perspective this year.

Ken Herbert

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Okay. And has the conversation with your CTS customers changed at all, just in terms of the timing of the sort of a ridership recovery, when I think about the major metropolitan areas and incremental risk to the capital spending. I mean, I know your -- obviously, your revenues are not driven by ridership, but eventually, we have to catch up. And I'm just curious if you're sensing any change from your customers in their outlook or on CTS, and sort of confidence near and mid-term on their ability to continue to fund the programs?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Yeah, I think ridership has been down. We also know that there's been discussion regarding vaccines coming in the mid-term in terms of the distribution of those. We anticipate that there will be growth next year and that CTS in terms of orders and the like, we'll have good book-to-bill next year. And then it will grow even more than that, the year following.

Ken Herbert

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

All right. Thanks, Brad.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Michael Ciarmoli with Truist. Your line is open.

Michael Ciarmoli

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

Hey good evening guys. Thanks for taking the questions. Brad, I guess, just to maybe stay on that CTS and the ridership. You said a couple of times lower ridership creating some headwinds. I know I think you guys have called out ridership is less than 2% of total annual revenues. The ridership pressure, I mean, should we think of that as pressuring your customers and the municipalities in creating delays, or again just trying to reconcile ridership delays because it's clearly not a big piece of your revenue, but is it just creating some constipation with execution on the programs you're working on?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

No. The programs are going along fine. So stuff that's in backlog, we're executing. And as you pointed out, unfortunately, we have a backlog north of $3 billion in that business. So that's moving along buying. There's a small sliver that's ridership focus. I think it depends upon the time frame. As we know, these municipalities are funded either through government grants or fair box revenue or sales tax, and it depends what part of the planet you're on. So that is delaying some CapEx a little bit, which are growth initiatives a few years from now. So – and we anticipate that the COVID is not going to last forever, thank God. And that the order flow will pick up. Having said that, next year, we expect good order flow. And then we expect it to pick up quite a bit to year following.

Michael Ciarmoli

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

Okay, okay. And then just as we look at the guidance framework for 2021, I think there's news out today about the New York MTA meeting probably $12 billion bail out. That -- everything, the pressure that's being incurred on the MTA and potential timing of revenues, all that seems to be in the scope of how you guys are thinking about pacing for 2021.

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

Yeah. That's all encapsulated in our guidance. What I would say is we have considerable backlog with our customer in the MTA. And we'll burn that backlog off. And there's been no discussion about anything different than that. In fact, we've been encouraged to speed up and so we're speeding up. You might remember, we were slowed down for about 6 weeks in the spring time due to COVID. And then after they stopped us and that was just on the installation, they said, hey can you speed up and get done by calendar year-end. And we're tracking every day the -- how many buses we're wiring, where those validators are going, and we're on track to finish that across all of New York City, this calendar year. So things are on track, and we have clean visibility on that revenue.

Michael Ciarmoli

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

Got it. Got it. And maybe just the last one, you guys -- you touched on it a couple of times about the expectation for good bookings next year and even layering in the kind of 2025 kind of target you've got out there. I think on one of the slides you threw out a $37 billion plus pipeline. Can you give some color on that pipeline? And how you think that can maybe convert on that pipeline? I'm assuming it's more skewed heavily towards CTS, but maybe just even give us some of the bigger programs or opportunities are tracking? And maybe what should we be looking for as you guys maybe try and execute on that opportunity?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

So we, of course, like a lot of companies use a methodology to measure the size of the pipeline, -- pipeline adequate to drive growth. So – and we look at a factor of north of 20 to 1 of the pipeline of the revenue that we need. And so we watch those metrics, and we're above those metrics. In terms of some big things that we're working on, there's a big fair collection job, for instance, in New Zealand -- across the country of New Zealand. We've chatted about Vancouver, there's opportunities in Dublin, there's opportunities in Prague. And we're seeing pretty good growth in our small to mid market expansion. You might remember, we bought Bill [indiscernible] at the beginning of the calendar of the year. And we've combined that with some Cubic capabilities as well as some movement capabilities. You'll hear some announcements in coming days, but that as well. And in our traffic business, we've seen good growth, and we expect that. So -- and you might also remember that in our defense business, we are very thrilled to win the high-capacity backbone. And I think in the last call, we mentioned that, that had opened up an addressable market of about $4 billion. So get that capability on lots of platforms. So there's growth across the business.

Michael Ciarmoli

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

Got it. Got it. Helpful. Thanks a lot guys. I will turn back in the queue.

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

I'll also point out that we talk about the $1.3 billion of unused capacity on sole source IDIQ. That's not in backlog. So those will materialize into bookings and into backlog, too.

Michael Ciarmoli

Analyst · Truist. Your line is open.

Got it.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Louie DiPalma with William Blair. Your line is open.

Louie DiPalma

Analyst · William Blair. Your line is open.

Brad, Anshooman and Kirsten, good afternoon.

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · William Blair. Your line is open.

Hello Louie.

Louie DiPalma

Analyst · William Blair. Your line is open.

You have addressed this topic several times in the past. But in terms of a refresher, could you discuss the synergies between your transportation and defense division and how having both of those divisions fits into your 2025 plan? And whether you plan greater synergies and cross-fertilization between having surveillance capabilities for transportation and surveillance capabilities for defense? Thanks.

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · William Blair. Your line is open.

I think your question is insightful, Louie. So thanks for that. What I would say, as you know, we went down this One Cubic path and what that – what we've done with that is, that's a hybrid sharing strategy, where on the one hand, things that are in the businesses that are customer-facing are decentralized, things like program management, engineering, marketing and so forth. But things that are not customer-facing or more support back office, if you will, are shared. And so we're working hard at improving that sharing even more so things like factory, things like supply chain, things like our legal department contracts, accounting. So all kinds of, if you will, support functions. And we do that so we can scale them. And you might also remember, we made a significant investment in SAP, so that we could have one platform across the globe to share common data. And so we're continuing to leverage that more and more. What I'd also say is there are vivid examples of technology and know-how that are shared across the business. So some examples. The guys in defense are actually better at doing thermal analysis than the folks in transportation. So they're helping them now as we speak in Brisbane. Also, all of the sort of user interface for the smart apps that we're rolling out for transport, that front-end was done in defense by NCPT [ph]. They have a bunch of gamers there who are expert on front ends. And C4ISR, some of the mapping capability and the like comes from transportation. So there are many, many things that we share across the business.

Louie DiPalma

Analyst · William Blair. Your line is open.

Indeed. And then I only want to say it was just surveillance. I know there's data analytics, capabilities and the engineering and gaming capabilities that you mentioned. One more question, Brad. Last year or it might have been the year before, you acquired Nuvotronics. And at the time, you highlighted a Nuvotronics PolyStrata technology for like 5G applications and millimeter wave. And I was wondering, does Cubic expect to play a large role in terms of the Department of Defenses, rollout of 5G applications or those Nuvotronics mostly focused on no commercial applications, or I'm just wondering, what's your outlook in terms of monetizing the Nuvotronics asset? Thanks.

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · William Blair. Your line is open.

Yes. So we're using – we believe Nuvotronics makes the best RF componentry in the world at millimeter wave type frequencies. And so we're in the base station designs of some key suppliers for 5G. And we're partnering them to bring those offerings to the Department of Defense. Also because the parts -- normal RF parts, you see with your eyes, these things you need jewelers classes with they're one-hundred the size and so they're really terrific for space applications. So, we have some bids out for LEO constellations and the like and we're pretty savvy that we're going to expand our role in space using Nuvotronics. Those are a couple of examples.

Louie DiPalma

Analyst · William Blair. Your line is open.

Thanks Brad and thanks Anshooman. That's all that I have.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Michael Eisen with RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Michael Eisen

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Hey good evening everyone. Thanks for squeezing me in the end. I'm looking at some of the early results in defense and you had a few big wins in the fourth quarter and strong profitability at CMS. When thinking about the potential of the combined business going forward, is there enough synergy you can drive in this business to be profitable throughout the course of the year? And how should we think about the cadence of profitability going forward?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

So, the profitability will improve year-on-year and will continue to improve year-on-year, and we expect margin expansion. The timing, there is seasonality. There's products in the defense business that tend to get shipped out in the fourth quarter and they have very good margin. So that will continue. But we're very pleased by combining the two businesses. One vivid example, we're today doing ISR simulation for exercises, and we're doing ISR for real and so we think there's synergies between those two capabilities as one vivid example.

Michael Eisen

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Got it. And then thinking of CTS, a lot of conversation around the pressure on your customers and there have been a few comments throughout the year about delays to new business wins. And so when thinking about the budget shortfalls that a lot of the customers are having, and clearly, there is expected growth next year for your business. When we think of the bookings, can we expect backlog to continue to grow into 2021 or is there a potential to see a step down before things normalize with consistent ridership?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

We expect the book-to-bill ratio to be good next year and for backlog to be slightly up as we exit the year

Michael Eisen

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Perfect. And then one quick one for Anshooman. Free cash flow was really strong in the year and it seemed that working capital was a key driver here. Can you talk to if there's still room for working capital improvements? And what the outlook is for free cash flow as we look out to next year?

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Sure. So, the cash flow, as you said, was really good for the end of the year. We expect cash flow for the full year fiscal 2021 to be positive, less than this year, and then 2022 to be an extremely positive year for cash. We have about $80 million of payments tied to certain milestones on certain projects in fiscal 2022, which would significantly drive our working capital down that year. But again, next year will be positive, probably less than this year and then a very strong 2022.

Michael Eisen

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets. Your line is open.

Very helpful. Thanks for all the information today.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Jim Ricchiuti with Needham & Company. Your line is open.

Jim Ricchiuti

Analyst · Needham & Company. Your line is open.

Anshooman, I may have missed it. But did you -- you gave a number, was it $46 million that you think was the fiscal 2020 impact from COVID? Was that for CTS?

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · Needham & Company. Your line is open.

Yes. The $46 million is the total impact for CTS that we estimated that include delayed opportunities, ridership and a little bit of slowdown for the overall company with $73 million that we estimated.

Jim Ricchiuti

Analyst · Needham & Company. Your line is open.

Okay. And that was my next question. I wanted to just get a better idea of how you're sizing the impact on the defense business. And just get in light of what's been happening with the spike around the country. Is that outlook for the defense business as it relates to the training business? Say, are you seeing more of an impact in Q1 from that?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Needham & Company. Your line is open.

The spike just happens, so we're evaluating that, but there is general acceptance among a lot of the nations that readiness is suffering and they’re trying to start some of the exercises in Q1, Q2. So we -- hopefully, we’ll see a recovery in the near term for some of the training exercises.

Jim Ricchiuti

Analyst · Needham & Company. Your line is open.

Okay. And one final question for me is, just with respect to R&D, you guys have clearly made some investments and won some programs as a result of it. And I'm just wondering if there's any way we should think about R&D expense for fiscal 2021? Do we see that tapering a bit? I don't know how you want to discuss it. If there's any color you can give, either as a percent of revenue or just anything you may want to call out on that?

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · Needham & Company. Your line is open.

Yes. So R&D for next year or for fiscal 2021 will be up to fiscal 2020, where you'll be in the 50 million-ish range from R&D perspective next year.

Jim Ricchiuti

Analyst · Needham & Company. Your line is open.

Terrific. Thanks very much.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Ken Herbert with Canaccord. Your line is open.

Ken Herbert

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Hey, thanks. Brad or Anshooman, just a quick follow-up. You're still talking about the $50 million to $75 million in incremental EBITDA by 2023 from NextCubic initiatives. Should we think about that as roughly -- I think you indicated sort of 50% through -- 50% due to the sort of top line and the organic initiatives and 50% from a cost standpoint. Is that the right framework to think about that $50 million to $75 million?

Brad Feldmann

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Yes. That is, Ken.

Ken Herbert

Analyst · Canaccord. Your line is open.

Okay, great. That’s it. Thank you.

Operator

Operator

Our next question comes from Jon Raviv with Citi. Your line is open.

Jon Raviv

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Hi. Thanks for the follow-up here. Just a question on organic growth. So you said down 3% this year. With the guidance for next year, can you just clarify for us what you're expecting in terms of organic growth in that guide for the fiscal year ahead?

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Yeah. So our number for next year is all organic, the sales guide of 1.55 to 1. 6 is all organic. There is, I guess, one extra quarter of Pixia and Delerrok, but that's not material.

Jon Raviv

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Okay. Thanks. And then in terms of COVID impact on the defense businesses, at least in this current fiscal year. Can you talk about how much of that is timing? And just, therefore, how much pickup we're getting in FY 2021 versus FY 2020? I guess, I just would have expected the organic growth number to be maybe a little bit higher if you're truly having -- given that this year is down 3%, maybe that's a really easy comp heading into next year.

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Yeah. So a couple of things. One, on the transportation side, the ridership impact or the negative impact of COVID still exists. We haven't solved for COVID, we are hopeful with a couple of vaccines that we've read about with high efficacy, we'll start seeing some pickup in ridership, but that probably won't happen until spring or summer. And then on the defense side of our business, there were some delayed orders. These are two, especially on the defense training side, if they're a couple year program. The revenue just starts later and continues on later. So it's not a one-for-one acceleration into the fiscal year.

Jon Raviv

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Okay. No, I understand Anshooman. Thanks for the clarification.

Anshooman Aga

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

I think what I would say is a bumper sticker, we expect growth to top line in both businesses and bottom line growth at an accelerated rate.

Jon Raviv

Analyst · Citi. Your line is open.

Much appreciated that. Thank you.

Operator

Operator

There are no further questions at this time. I'll now turn the call back to Brad for closing remarks.

Brad Feldmann

Analyst

Thank you for joining us today. Before we sign off, I want to thank our Cubic team for their ongoing commitment to serving our customers and keeping our businesses safely operational during the ongoing pandemic. We appreciate your support and interest in Cubic. Thanks so very much.

Operator

Operator

This concludes today's conference call. You may now disconnect.