Earnings Labs

Polaris Inc. (PII)

Q3 2014 Earnings Call· Wed, Oct 22, 2014

$65.26

+6.89%

Key Takeaways · AI generated
AI summary not yet generated for this transcript. Generation in progress for older transcripts; check back soon, or browse the full transcript below.

Same-Day

+2.21%

1 Week

+2.89%

1 Month

+8.03%

vs S&P

+0.77%

Transcript

Executives

Management

Richard Edwards - Director of Investor Relations Scott W. Wine - Chairman, Chief Executive Officer and Member of Technology Committee Bennett J. Morgan - President and Chief Operating Officer Michael W. Malone - Chief Financial Officer, Principal Accounting Officer and Vice President of Finance

Analysts

Management

Michael A. Swartz - SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, Inc., Research Division Scott L. Stember - Sidoti & Company, LLC Gregory R. Badishkanian - Citigroup Inc, Research Division Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division Jaime M. Katz - Morningstar Inc., Research Division Timothy A. Conder - Wells Fargo Securities, LLC, Research Division Robin M. Farley - UBS Investment Bank, Research Division Scott W. Hamann - KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc., Research Division James Hardiman - Longbow Research LLC Mark E. Smith - Feltl and Company, Inc., Research Division Craig R. Kennison - Robert W. Baird & Co. Incorporated, Research Division Jimmy Baker - B. Riley Caris, Research Division Joseph D. Hovorka - Raymond James & Associates, Inc., Research Division

Operator

Operator

Good morning. My name is Melissa, and I will be your conference operator today. At this time, I would like to welcome everyone to the Polaris Third Quarter Earnings Results Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Thank you. I would now like to turn the call over to Mr. Richard Edwards, Director, Investor Relations. You may begin your conference.

Richard Edwards

Analyst

Thank you, Melissa, and good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our third quarter 2014 earnings conference call. As always, a slide presentation is accessible at our website at www.polaris.com/irhome, which has additional information for this morning's call. The speakers today are: Scott Wine, our Chairman and Chief Executive Officer; Bennett Morgan, our President and Chief Operating Officer; and Mike Malone, our Chief Financial Officer. During the call today, our discussions will include various topics, including our updated guidance expectations for 2014 and some preliminary comments about our outlook for 2015, which should be considered forward-looking for the purposes of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Actual results could differ materially from those projections in the forward-looking statements. Now I'll turn it over to Scott Wine, our CEO. Scott?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst

Thanks, Richard, and good morning, everyone. Thank you for joining us. At Polaris, the third quarter always tests our mettle, from the challenge of pulling together increasingly large and complex dealer shows and delivering on the high expectations of our model year news to building a strategic plan that charts our course for the years ahead. Add a global crisis or 2, major moves in currencies and the inevitable internal and external issues that arise, and the quarter provides the perfect showcase for the tremendous leadership, agility and teamwork that has fueled Polaris' growth for the past 60 years. Across our global business, innovation and execution won the battle against volatility in the third quarter, yielding an 18% increase in Polaris third quarter sales to just over $1.3 billion. North American retail sales remain high, posting an impressive 12% rise, and that's without a single Scout or Slingshot sale. Motorcycle revenue still led the company, with a 20% increase over the prior year period, with PG&A and ORV recording respectively strong 24% and 17% increases. Our International business was mixed, with robust 40% growth in Asia Pacific and Latin America, offsetting an essentially flat Europe, Middle East and Africa business for an overall quarterly increase of 9% for our International businesses. Earnings outpaced revenue again in the third quarter, with net income increasing 20% to $140.8 million, yielding record earnings per share of $2.06, up 26% over the prior year period. The resiliency of the Polaris earnings machine was clearly evident in the quarter, as we balanced aggressive top line growth, pricing and operating expense leverage to offset the predicted negative foreign exchange impact of the Canadian dollar and most European currencies. Net income margins increased modestly to 10.8%. Our year-to-date growth has not come easy, as we have worked…

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst

Thanks, Scott, and good morning, everyone. As Scott just mentioned, Polaris North American retail sales increased 12% in the third quarter. This retail growth, along with market share gains in each of our businesses, extended our market leadership in powersports. The third quarter North American powersports industry remained positive, posting mid-single-digit growth. Year-to-date, Polaris retail sales are up 11%. Dealer inventory remains in good shape, up 15% versus 2013, primarily to support model year '15 new model introductions and segments. We continue to introduce an unprecedented level of innovation and news to our customers, with 18 new ORV models, 5 new motorcycles, including the Slingshot, and over 300 new PG&A items. Let's move on to business unit performance. Off-Road Vehicles. Polaris ORV business registered a record third quarter, as revenue rose 17%. Year-to-date revenue was up 14%. For the 30th consecutive quarter, we gained share in ORVs in North America, gaining in both ATVs and side-by-sides and building upon our clear #1 positions. Polaris ORV retail sales were up high single digits in an industry that increased mid-single digits, despite some softness in Canada. Polaris core ATV retail sales were down slightly but outperformed an industry, which declined low single digits, while Polaris side-by-side retail grew double digits in an industry, we estimate, grew about 10%. RZR retail was particularly robust, led by the RZR XP 1000 2- and 4-seat editions and later in the third quarter by the fantastic new RZR 900 trails. The ACE lineup is growing both in models and retail sales and continues to be very incremental as well as attract new customers. The balance of our 18 model year '15 ORV models began to arrive in dealers late in the third quarter, and early sales trends are brisk. We are investing in and building on…

Michael W. Malone

Analyst

Thanks, Bennett, and good morning to everyone. We are narrowing our total company sales guidance and now expect sales to increase 17% to 18%, driven by year-over-year sales gains in each of our businesses. Based on the strength of year-to-date retail sales, ORVs are now expected to grow 13% to 14%, up from prior guidance of 11% to 13%. All previously issued sales guidance for our other businesses remains unchanged. Snowmobiles are expected to grow mid-single-digits percent. Motorcycles are expected to increase 65% to 75%. Small vehicles are expected to increase 25% to 30%. PG&A sales are expected to be up about 20%, and sales to international customers outside of North America are expected to grow low-teens percent. With better-than-expected year-to-date gross margins performance, we now expect our gross margins to decline in the 20 to 30 basis point range, slightly improved from our previous guidance. Operating expenses as a percentage of sales are now expected to decline about 50 to 70 basis points in 2014, a modest change from our previous guidance of down about 60 to 80 basis points. The difference is primarily driven by our ongoing investments in sales, marketing, product development and distribution, particularly for our newest brands, Indian and Slingshot, and various other global investments and hires for future growth opportunities. We have realized positive benefits to operating expenses from the reduction in our incentive compensation expenses related to changes made to the company's long-term incentive compensation plan as we have previously discussed. The income generated from our Financial Services business is now expected to grow about 25% in 2014, an upgrade from prior guidance due to the improved profitability of the Polaris Acceptance dealer financing portfolio and increased income from our retail credit providers. The net result of these guidance moves does not change…

Scott W. Wine

Analyst

Thanks, Mike. From unfavorable movements in currencies to the potential lack of movement in the Long Beach ports, we see no lack of challenges as we work through the final months of 2014. But with a great team and an exciting lineup of new products and commercial campaigns, we expect to finish strong and position Polaris well for 2015. The past few years have been marked by a combination of a persistent policy and regulatory uncertainty and a consistent pattern of the U.S. economy growing below expectations. I would like to think that the U.S. electorate will speak loudly in a few weeks and demand action on taxes, energy, immigration and the other areas that have the potential to unleash our economic engine, but we do not rely on wishful thinking at Polaris. As such, we will plan for a moderate domestic GDP increase again next year, with the Eurozone possibly not growing at all, which will leave Asia Pacific and parts of Latin America as the most likely markets to offer tailwinds. Once again, we will rely on innovation and share gains to lead us to double-digit growth. As the U.S. dollar strengthens, we anticipate adverse currency movements again in 2015. But in concert with our robust balance sheet, the stronger dollar will also assist us in our M&A pursuits, which could enable us to drive faster growth in our International businesses. We will remain capable of managing expectations for Ken Pucel but, nonetheless, expect him and his team to carefully balance our need for capacity with their mandate for margin expansion. Lean is our answer, and 2015 will mark a major inflection point for Polaris' Lean transformation. From an investment in people at all levels of the company and in all parts of the world to a plant…

Operator

Operator

[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from the line of Mike Swartz with SunTrust.

Michael A. Swartz - SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, Inc., Research Division

Analyst

Just on FX, if we can dig into that a little bit. I know that, that's been a significant drag this year on gross margin. Just really 2 points and, I guess, based on Mike's commentary, it looks like gross -- or the drag to gross margin was at least 60 basis points in the quarter. I mean, you said, gross margin would have been positive. How would we look at that for maybe fourth quarter?

Michael W. Malone

Analyst

Well, this is Mike. We would expect gross margins -- we increased our guidance for the full year on gross margins a bit. It’ll still be down for the year. Currencies will continue to have headwind impact in Q4 as well. At the current rates, we don't see things as getting materially better anytime soon.

Michael A. Swartz - SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, Inc., Research Division

Analyst

Okay. And then just you said you're about 90% hedged, I think, for the fourth quarter. What does that look like for 2015?

Michael W. Malone

Analyst

Well, we have some hedges for 2015 at this point in other currencies: the peso and the yen and the Australian dollar. We currently do not have any Canadian dollar hedges for 2015 as of yet. We haven't been able to execute on any of those yet.

Michael A. Swartz - SunTrust Robinson Humphrey, Inc., Research Division

Analyst

Okay. And then maybe, just flipping over -- switching over to Scott, I mean, you made some commentary on just, I think, international M&A. I mean, based on what you said, a read that something has changed or something is more likely today than it was maybe several months ago?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst

No. We don't see anything much different. We've had a long history of looking at opportunities to accelerate growth in International businesses. And I was simply commenting on the fact that, that gets a little bit easier as the dollar gets stronger.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Scott Stember with Sidoti & Company. Scott L. Stember - Sidoti & Company, LLC: Just getting back to the currency topic. Can you talk about how the new facility in Poland, now that you'll be having your costs also being impacted by the euro, how that could act as a potential hedge next year to help you out on the currency front?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst

Obviously, it creates just more of a natural hedge for us. The reality of the volume of the shipments, it's not going to provide too much incremental coverage. But certainly, that's one of the reasons. Obviously, the biggest reason we did the Opole plant was to serve the European market better and reduce our logistics cost. But obviously, the currency benefit will be helpful, but I wouldn't change your model completely on it. Scott L. Stember - Sidoti & Company, LLC: Got you. And what are your plans, as far as -- let's say, by the end of 2015, how much of the European ORV supply will be provided by the plant in Poland?

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst

Scott, this is Bennett. As we get to the end of '15, we'll be ramping production rate up really, fairly aggressively through the year. And by the time we get to the end of '15, we should be doing the majority of at least European region product out of Opole. There'll be a few models where it doesn't make sense and some homologations where we're still doing that engineering work that will probably increase the percentage as we get to '16 and '17, but think about it as a significant portion by the end of the year.

Scott W. Wine

Analyst

That's just of Off-Road Vehicles, not motorcycles.

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst

Yes. Thank you for clarifying. Scott L. Stember - Sidoti & Company, LLC: Got you. And just moving over to Slingshot. Can you maybe just talk about, give a little more granularity about the positive reception. I know that some states, in order to get a motorcycle license, you have to actually ride a 2-wheeler, so that could present some headwinds going into a dealership to test ride a Slingshot. Can you maybe talk about how all those logistics are taking place and if there's anything that you guys are doing to help smooth that out?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst

Yes. I mean, clearly, by definition it's a motorcycle, and you need a motorcycle endorsement to do that. And in -- I would say in a number of states -- majority of states, it's difficult to take that on a 3-wheel product based on the test. So our team, just like Ken Am [ph] has done with the Spyder, continues to work on trying to develop, I'd say, a more 3-wheel specific type of test and evaluation process, but that would be a process that will happen over a period of months and, frankly, probably years as you work with the individual states. But again, from the early innings here, we couldn't be more pleased with the response, really, from all stakeholders, from dealers to consumers to the response by the press. It's frankly been the most -- it's been the highest response impressions product we've had, frankly, in the history of Polaris, really, over the first couple of months. And I think that really ties to its sexiness and its uniqueness. And customer deposits, while we're not going to comment on the specific amounts, it certainly far exceeded ours and dealers' expectations. So we're pretty encouraged early. Scott L. Stember - Sidoti & Company, LLC: Okay. Just one last question on the Financial Services income. Can you maybe just talk about -- I mean, you had a near 50% increase year-over-year. Was there anything onetime in nature? And is that $16 million, $17 million run rate per quarter something that we should model going out?

Michael W. Malone

Analyst

Well, Scott, I'd just hold to our guidance. We've increased our guidance to up 25% for the balance of the year. And we're -- we've got a strong business, both on the wholesale side with Polaris Acceptance and improving profitability from our retail credit providers as well. [Operator Instructions]

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Greg Badishkanian with Citigroup.

Gregory R. Badishkanian - Citigroup Inc, Research Division

Analyst · Citigroup.

First question is with respect to Indian. So Scott, I think you mentioned, it was -- I think it was a few quarters ago that your 3-year target would be to achieve high single-digit, low double-digit share for Indian. So just wondering how you feel about that target. And do you think that, that maybe ended up a little bit too conservative of an estimate?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · Citigroup.

It's hard to say. I think when I said that, we hadn't really launched much and were just building the business. Clearly, the first year has gone extremely well. The excitement has been, I mentioned, around Scout, has been literally through the roof. So we still feel very good about it. As we know, the motorcycle industry is quite competitive, so we're not going to project too much success, but we certainly do feel better than we did a year or 2 ago about the potential for the Indian brand business.

Gregory R. Badishkanian - Citigroup Inc, Research Division

Analyst · Citigroup.

Okay, great. And my second question is just the promotional environment, maybe give us a little bit of color what you're seeing from your competitors on the ATV side as well as the side-by-side, both your competitors and what you're doing.

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · Citigroup.

Yes. Greg, this is Bennett. Promotional environments, I would say, generally, really relatively stable and within our expectations. ATVs, I would characterize as a pretty stable environment over the last 12 months, and I don't think there's been any surprises there. And side-by-side has remained -- because it's a much more competitive industry with lots of additional product introductions by different competitors, has been more elevated, as we've launched products and customer -- I mean, and competitors have responded to those products. I mean, I think it's been particularly aggressive on the recreational side, but it's also been aggressive on the utility side in RANGER. But everything is, again, within our expectations. And as you can see, it's not really been a headwind to the P&L, and we continue to gain share. So we feel okay about it. But it's going to remain aggressive. I wouldn't expect it to get easier.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Joe Spak with RBC Capital Markets.

Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets.

Just on -- sticking on Indian for a little bit. Is it -- it seems like the pace of the dealer has slowed a little bit. So maybe you could update us if there's anything specific going on there or that's really just timing. And then the other thing is if it's possible to separate some of the growth you've seen in the Indian from true retail demand versus dealer expansion and if you are seeing any impact on Victory from the Indian growth.

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets.

All right, that's 4 questions. No. The pace for the Indian dealer adds -- I mean, we came out of the gates this year saying it was taking us longer to retrofit the dealer locations and find the quality of dealers we were looking for. So really, it hasn't slowed. And in fact, if anything, the pace and quality of the dealers that we're adding to the list is going quite well. It's just ultimately getting these dealers to the point where the doors are open, and their retailing is taking -- it just takes a while. And I will tell you that the quality of the dealerships we're getting is fantastic. And because of that, the retail of those dealers, that 109 right now, that are selling bikes has surpassed our expectations. So absolutely, it's not at all coming from dealer adds as we'd like to catch up, and we certainly will. We see good progress there. But the retail and quality of the dealers that we've got is fantastic.

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets.

Yes. And then maybe to address your question, Joe, on the Victory angle. I mean, Victory was down, as I said mid-teens. And I think there really were a couple of factor. And remember, we were coming off a pretty amazing third quarter last year with the Red Tag. It was our best Victory quarter ever. We're up 32%, all-time high share gains. So it was a pretty tough comp. And as I kind of indicated in my remarks of really around liquid paint in Spirit Lake, we were constrained on shipments, Victory dealer inventory was actually down 10% year-to-date. And you certainly saw that in our new product availability of Magnums, which certainly hurt retail end. So that's more of what's going on in Victory. When we look at all of our cannibalization numbers from Indian to Victory, frankly, it's about 10%. So I would tell you, I would probably say we're fairly thrilled with that. Indian is getting its source of volume from exactly the competitors we thought it was going to get it from. And frankly, Victory is just like every other heavyweight motorcycle manufacturer has to compete with the offerings out there, whether that's from Indian or Harley-Davidson or from the Japanese. We haven't been able to get that brand quite as much news in the short term, and that will change certainly over time. And so we still remain very bullish on our future in Victory and are not daunted at all because it seems a little soft right now.

Joseph Spak - RBC Capital Markets, LLC, Research Division

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets.

Okay. Just quickly on the operating cash flow guidance. I know you said that it will grow a little bit faster than net income. Year-to-date, it's been pretty flat. So is there anything unusual in the fourth quarter that's going to be providing that large -- or making up a difference for the year?

Michael W. Malone

Analyst · RBC Capital Markets.

No, it's just timing, timing related, this year versus last year.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Jaime Katz with Morningstar.

Jaime M. Katz - Morningstar Inc., Research Division

Analyst · Morningstar.

I have a couple of questions. First, I think you guys had put a chart up on capacity utilization at the meeting earlier this summer. With Poland opened, I'm curious how you feel about the extra capacity you'll have online domestically. And maybe if growth continues as it has, how you feel about that maybe for the next year or 2 and what that means for expanding your footprint? And then second, for inventories, I know you guys said something about product mix is part of the reason they had gone up. Can you maybe dive a little bit deeper into that?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · Morningstar.

Bennett and I will answer this one together. The Poland play was really about making more profitability and adding the ability to serve the European customers. We obviously get a nice little capacity benefit from that as it ramps up production throughout next year. But certainly, as we've continued to grow quite fast, specifically on our Off-Road Vehicle business, and as we've shifted Spirit Lake to be more of a motorcycle facility, we do find ourselves looking at how to expand our capacity in the most effective manner. So we're in the process of looking at that right now, and we'll ultimately make -- I mean, we are very committed to maintaining our returns on invested capital. So trust that if we do something, it's going to be in line with that. Bennett, you want to talk a little bit about the inventory position?

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · Morningstar.

Yes. I guess, Jamie, were you talking -- reference factory inventory or dealer inventory?

Jaime M. Katz - Morningstar Inc., Research Division

Analyst · Morningstar.

Factory.

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · Morningstar.

Okay. Yes. On factory, I think a couple of factors. I mean, I think you know we've been not necessarily thrilled with our performance in factory inventory over the last several quarters. We remain to believe that, that is an opportunity for us. We continue to get our Lean initiatives off and rolling. We expect better performance from ourselves and the team as we go forward. Specifically, on the number this quarter, the differences really were driven by really tremendous growth in PG&A and a couple of acquisitions that add to that inventory. As we add these new factories and plants and capacity, we are dealing with more raw materials as we go forward structurally. And then just look at our product mix of more expensive motorcycles and bigger and higher performance ORVs. That product mix of more expensive products is adding to the dollars level because the units, frankly, again, are flat, which we view as a positive, frankly.

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · Morningstar.

Yes. And it would have been -- and obviously it will be helpful in the fourth quarter as we begin to ship Scout and Slingshot, which were both poised for shipment in the third quarter.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Tim Conder with Wells Fargo Securities.

Timothy A. Conder - Wells Fargo Securities, LLC, Research Division

Analyst · Wells Fargo Securities.

A couple of things gentlemen. One on motorcycles. Scott, a little while ago, you talked about potentially getting to breakeven by the end of '15. Number one, is that with or without parts and accessories? And then it sounds like you've got the paint issues going on with Slingshot and a little bit on Victory. So has that maybe slowed that up just a little bit? That's question number one. Number two is, Bennett, if you could give any color -- you said that Canada sales, and everything going on with currency and so forth there, hurt your ORV in North America. If you just sort of exclude that, can you give any comment on U.S. ORV and side-by-sides year-over-year?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · Wells Fargo Securities.

All right, Tim. On motorcycles, we do see a path to profitability in the end of '15. And there's a lot of investment continuing to go on. But as we've referred to several times, what we're seeing with Indian and the prospects we have for Victory and ultimately Slingshot adding to that mix, we certainly feel like we've got the potential to have a very profitable business exiting as we get into next year and certainly as we finish. As far as the...

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · Wells Fargo Securities.

Yes. And again, I would just -- again, it's a complex new liquid paint system and it's going to be a way better future for us. We'll get through that here over the next couple of months. And then it is, I don't want to say going to be smooth-sailing, but we'll have a ton of capacity in our On-Road stuff going forward in Spirit Lake. So we're really poised for a better future. On the Canada question, I don't want to overdramatize that. It's -- what we would call it is it's notably softer. And I think that really is attributable to what's going on in the Canadian economy right now. If you look at our wholesale performance, United States is up really strong double digits, over 20% in the third quarter; and Canada was down about 5%. The market differences on the retail aren't quite that pronounced, but it is softer. And Canada is an important market for us for both ORVs and sleds. So it hasn't been an impact on sleds yet, but we're watching it carefully and just wanted to make sure people were aware of it. It's about 10% of our sales. It's an important market, so we watch that very, very carefully.

Timothy A. Conder - Wells Fargo Securities, LLC, Research Division

Analyst · Wells Fargo Securities.

And within your ORV guidance, gentlemen, does that include military getting to $100 million this year?

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · Wells Fargo Securities.

No.

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · Wells Fargo Securities.

No. We're -- Bennett said in his speech, the introduction of DAGOR at AUSA, I was there for that, it truly is a really potentially disruptive product and incredibly helpful for the war fighter. And certainly, it's going to help be one of the things that propels our business to over $100 million over time. But certainly, not suggesting that, that's going to happen in the fourth quarter.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Robin Farley with UBS Securities.

Robin M. Farley - UBS Investment Bank, Research Division

Analyst · UBS Securities.

Great. First on ATVs. I wonder if you could comment on the market, it's down for the first quarter, and 6, 7, 8 quarters, at least, they've had increases. And is that related to the ACE? Or is the ACE cannibalizing? Or is the ACE in your ATV numbers? So just kind of how to think about that. And then also on Indian dealers, when you look at the total number of new signings, is there any change in the existing signed dealers? In other words, is there any churn? And so is it just the incremental dealers that signed? Or did you lose some of the signed and kind of gained others? And just how should we think about how to expect the dealer rollout and new signings over the next year?

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · UBS Securities.

All right. I'll try to take the Indian one first. I mean, we're not -- we really haven't had any dealer turnover in Indian since we started as our -- going retail [ph] because some of these are pretty extensive build-outs. In some cases, they need zoning. We've had a few guys that have dropped, as they've gone through that process and not been able to get the land or the building. Those processes have dragged out, and then we've kind of jointly decided to go a different direction. But that's -- I would say that's not even a handful. It's very small numbers. So it's basically going as planned. It's just -- as Scott mentioned, it's a very involved process and it takes time, longer than we certainly initially estimated.

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · UBS Securities.

Yes. And every time -- I'll tell you just inside the locker room stuff, Robin. Every time I get pissed off about how fast or how slow it's going, the guys send me a picture of the next dealer that's coming online, and I feel better about it. Really, the quality of what they're getting and as evidenced by the retail of those that are coming online is better than we expected. So I -- certainly, we're building capability to go faster, but not compromising quality of the dealer at all.

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · UBS Securities.

In regard to your question on ATVs, again, we've been pleased with how the -- what we would call that core ATV industry has performed year-to-date. And yes, we're a little disappointed that it was down low single digits. But what I would say, if you look at it over a little bit longer period of time, the ATV industry is doing what we expect it to do. ACE is not in our number on that. And I would say ACE is still early enough as a new category in this. And from everything that we're reading in our numbers, it's not cannibalizing our ATV sales at all. And obviously, if you threw ACE into an ATV industry, if you want to do that, the numbers look better. But we're not worried we're seeing significant cannibalization at all. Right now, the metrics we're looking at, it says that ACE still is largely almost 100% incremental on the sales side from us at the retail standpoint, so we're thrilled with that.

Robin M. Farley - UBS Investment Bank, Research Division

Analyst · UBS Securities.

Can I just clarify when you say that your ACE is not cannibalizing, does that mean that if you include ACE in your ATV number, that would swing it into positive territory?

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · UBS Securities.

Yes. If you wanted to look at it that way, yes, it would.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Scott Hamann with KeyBanc Capital Markets.

Scott W. Hamann - KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc., Research Division

Analyst · KeyBanc Capital Markets.

Just we get a lot of questions on the ag business and some of the potential softening there. Can you give us your updated thoughts on what your direct and kind of indirect exposure might be there and what some of the trends that you're seeing there might be?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · KeyBanc Capital Markets.

Yes. Obviously, the ag market has been weak now for almost a year. And if you look at our performance over that prior year period versus those larger companies, I don't have to name them for you, that are very focused on heavier ag equipment, you'll see that it hasn't hurt us much at all and that's kind of what we expect to see going forward. We didn't get a huge benefit on the run-up with ag, and we're not seeing much of an impact at all on the way down. That being said, a lot of our customers are farmers and ranchers. What we find, though, is that the -- and this is -- our products are a rounding error to what they're betting on. So obviously, it’s a little bit of impact, but it's something with well -- as we've proven over the last 9 months, well within something that we can deal with.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of James Hardiman with Longbow Research.

James Hardiman - Longbow Research LLC

Analyst · Longbow Research.

Talk about the retail growth through the lens of the capacity issues that you've mentioned a couple of times. Do you think the retail growth would have been higher if you had been able to get out all the product that you would have liked? It sounds like, at least with motorcycles, the clear answer is yes. But maybe talk a little bit about ORVs, if that high single-digit number would have been a little bit better if capacity issues hadn't been there in the third quarter.

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · Longbow Research.

Jim, this is Bennett. I don't like to deal in would have, could have, should haves. But yes, I think it would have been modestly higher, certainly motorcycles because we were slow with -- that was just -- I mean, the demand on these new model year '15s on both Victory and Indian 2-tones and Roadmasters, and we were constrained. So no question that impacted our motorcycle retail. And I prefer for you to say modestly, but no question. And again, we were swamped in our ORV plants as well. And so we were a little slower on those, even though we were able to get the shipments out. So I think it did have a modest retail impact on the ORVs as well.

James Hardiman - Longbow Research LLC

Analyst · Longbow Research.

Got it. And then second question, I think Mike mentioned ORV ASP is up 6% in the third quarter. That's a great number. Maybe talk through how we should think about that going forward. It doesn't seem like a whole bunch of the special edition, really high price point XP 1000s hit in the third quarter. That should help. But you're also going up against a real tough ASP comp, ORV specifically, I'm speaking to here. So anyway, that could -- that seems like that could be a really big swing factor in the fourth quarter. How should we think about that going forward?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · Longbow Research.

You know you're encroaching on Hovorka’s [ph] question there.

Michael W. Malone

Analyst · Longbow Research.

Yes. So it was 6% in the third quarter. It's 4% on a year-to-date basis. I don't know that we can project too much going forward at this point on what that might be. I think you're right. There are opportunities for higher priced ORVs. We also introduced a fair number of value models, and EXTs and those types of things, which -- 570s that are in the mid to lower end of the scale as well. So -- and then ACE, the ACE ramps up, ACE is lower. So I don't think I would get too carried away with that.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Mark Smith with Feltl and Company.

Mark E. Smith - Feltl and Company, Inc., Research Division

Analyst · Feltl and Company.

Can you just walk us quickly through the Eicher timeline. Bennett, I think you said second quarter '15 expected shipments?

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · Feltl and Company.

Yes. As we built out the JV going into a new market with a great partner, I mean, again, I would tell you, everything is moving along probably as we expected. But just as we expected there, when you're doing an all-new kind of new-to-the-earth kind of a product category and concept, you have a new partner, you're building a new team, you're preparing a distribution channel, you're building a plant, there's always a little bit of complexities that you -- that even though you try to plan for them, slow you down a little bit as you go through regulatory. And so we're about 3 months behind where we expected to be about a year ago. And so right now, we're in the process of kind of signing up distribution. The teams are -- is preparing the final kind of go-to-market launch and marketing plan. The plant is essentially ready, and we expect to begin shipping in the second quarter is really the plan. And we expect as does Eicher, that we'll be successful in this -- in the venture. But again, any time you're going to an Indian market, I want to make sure you're clear, it's a big, vast, wonderful market. But you're dealing with traditionally lower margins, and it'll take time for us to build that to everything that it can be over the next 3 to 4 years.

Mark E. Smith - Feltl and Company, Inc., Research Division

Analyst · Feltl and Company.

Okay. And then motorcycle guidance implies really pretty strong fourth quarter numbers year-over-year. Is a lot of that just timing of Scout, the biggest impact on that?

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · Feltl and Company.

Yes. Well, Scout is going to help. We're going to ramp up Roadmaster. And don't forget, Slingshot is going to be in there as well, so...

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · Feltl and Company.

Yes.

Scott W. Wine

Analyst · Feltl and Company.

We've got a lot of good stuff coming into fourth quarter.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Craig Kennison with Robert W. Baird. Craig R. Kennison - Robert W. Baird & Co. Incorporated, Research Division: I'll keep it to one question. Scott, a lot of investors perceive you to be the leanest company in powersports already. So maybe the question is what can you do further to, I guess, press that advantage? Maybe frame, if you would, what's still on the table for Polaris to get more Lean to drive better margin? It just seems like you've done a lot already.

Scott W. Wine

Analyst

No, I mean I -- we've talked about a bad baseline sometimes. So when we talk about the improvements we've made, it's really not -- it's more of the powersports industry-wise versus where we could be. And I think if you just look at the automotive industry and some of the metrics they have and what they've done in their Lean transformation over the years gives you a good example of what we can do. I mean, the main areas where we expect to get better, this lead time reduction effort, getting products to our dealers and our consumers. We started to do that with our motorcycle business, and we're going to continue to get better with motorcycles and expand that across our ATVs. So lead times are going to improve. Our quality, which includes Net Promoter Scores, our warranty costs and ultimately the rework that we do will improve over time. The labor productivity, which is not a huge number for us, but it's going to get better. And it's been alluded to, we're not on top of our game with factory inventory right now. And we believe we've got a great opportunity to free up cash by better managing inventory in the future. So those are just a couple of areas. And I think the potential as we -- it's not just a single person. Obviously, Ken's bringing a lot of great experience to help us accelerate that growth. But I think it's a requirement for all of us on the team to really embrace this opportunity to be a great Lean enterprise.

Operator

Operator

Your next question comes from the line of Jimmy Baker with B. Riley & Co.

Jimmy Baker - B. Riley Caris, Research Division

Analyst · B. Riley & Co.

Just had a couple of follow-ups here. First on capacity. Can you just talk a little bit about the flexibility of capacity at Spirit Lake? Is that at all interchangeable? I guess, for example, could you take advantage of some potential weakness on one line to meet demand in, say, Indian or Slingshot? And then secondly on the income from Financial Services, can you just kind of talk a little bit more about what's differing there from your prior expectations? I think, as you mentioned, penetration rate remains flat, flat sequentially, still down a couple of points year-over-year. So is the guidance raise there just really a function of higher-than-expected dealer inventory?

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst · B. Riley & Co.

All right. Let me take the kind of Spirit Lake flexibility and capacity. I think that remains kind of a hallmark strength of Polaris versus any of our traditional competitors. I mean, generally speaking, our lines with a minimum of rework and investment in time can produce other products in our portfolio, particularly in a motorcycle thing, with really not a tremendous amount of lead time. So I would say, absolutely, Jimmy, that's true in our expectation. What we would probably do, unless we saw something major here over the next several months, is what we would use is kind of use our labor forces to kind of swap that around to go faster or slower, based on what's going on because we have some dedicated lines set up for each of the key categories, whether it's Victory, heavyweight, Indian or essentially mid-sized Scouts right now and then Slingshot. So we're feeling pretty good about our flexibility, particularly now that the big paint system is about to go live here over the next week or 2, and we'll have that behind us.

Michael W. Malone

Analyst · B. Riley & Co.

Okay. On Financial Services, as I said before, it's really coming from both our wholesale and retail. In the wholesale area, our portfolio balance is now over $1 billion. And in a stable interest rate environment and a stable cost environment for that business with the inventory -- the finance inventory being up 26%, it's just generating a lot more profit opportunity for the joint venture that we share with GE. On the retail side, the penetration rates are holding stable, but our volumes continue to increase as our retail sales increase. And the profitability with our relationships, the metrics that are driving the payments that we get are improving. And that's generating significantly higher profit for our Financial Services business.

Operator

Operator

Your last question comes from the line of Joe Hovorka with Raymond James. Joseph D. Hovorka - Raymond James & Associates, Inc., Research Division: Just 2 quick questions. The first on Victory. Bennett, you talked a little bit about the Indian not cannibalizing Victory any more than you thought it would be. But we now have 3 quarters of down retail sales, and I can understand what's going on here in the third quarter, how do you foot that with 3 consecutive down quarters and cannibalization not being any worse than you thought? Because I think we were kind of talking about Indian potentially growing alongside with Victory growing.

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst

Yes. I think that's a fair question, Joe. I mean, I think when we really are honest and that we assess the situation, I mean, the heavyweight motorcycles industry is an extremely competitive space. And as we've entered with Indian, with really, really compelling products in all of those key segments, it's only gotten more so. Harley has responded with some very good products of their own and a lot of our Japanese competitors are responding, if not with new product, with really aggressive promotional efforts. And so I would tell you it's a product more so than anything of a very competitive industry. And again, in the short term, we have not had as much product news as our dealers or our customers are used to, and we expect to rectify that in the near future. And then I think secondarily, clearly, in the third quarter, it was worse because we didn't help ourselves with our capacity constraints. And gain our key new products and the appropriate model year '15 is out to the marketplace. That would have helped us. That's how I would tell you the answer. I mean, we're certainly not panicked and we know what we got to do to make that better as we go forward. It's straightforward.

Scott W. Wine

Analyst

And I mean, we still -- I mean, we make great motorcycles with Victory. And I think all the reports say that. We've got some exciting new members on our team, so I expect the commercial execution of that as well as the operational execution to get better. So certainly, not the growth -- or the lack of growth, which is not what we wanted this year, but we feel very good about the long-term ability for Victory to be a growing and viable part of Polaris. Joseph D. Hovorka - Raymond James & Associates, Inc., Research Division: Okay. And then the second question is on your gross margin guidance. You've got -- production volume has actually pushed in the third quarter for the full year, but we've got volumes up. How is that not gross margin accretive? What am I missing there?

Michael W. Malone

Analyst

Well, I think the real thing there, Joe, is -- we've been talking about it for much of the call, in capacity. We're bursting at the seams on capacity. And to get the product out, we're not always as efficient as we'd like to be. We're expediting stuff. We're working overtimes. We're moving stuff around from factory to factory. We're not as efficient as we like to be.

Bennett J. Morgan

Analyst

Plus new line ramp-ups.

Michael W. Malone

Analyst

Yes. So we're not getting a lot of absorption benefit, operating as tight as we are.

Richard Edwards

Analyst

Okay, thank you. I want to thank everyone for participating, and we look forward to talking to you again next quarter in January. Thanks again, and goodbye.

Operator

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's conference call. You may now disconnect.