Newsmax, Inc. (NMAX) Q4 2025 Earnings Report, Transcript and Summary

Greetings. Welcome to the Newsmax Fourth Quarter and Fiscal Year 2025 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note, this conference is being recorded. I will now turn the conference over to your host, Chris Odeh, Riveron Investor Relations. Chris, you may begin.

Good afternoon, and welcome to Newsmax's Fourth Quarter 2025 Earnings Conference Call. I'm joined today by Chris Ruddy, Chief Executive Officer; and Darryle Burnham, Chief Financial Officer. On this call, Chris and Darryle will provide some prepared remarks on the most recent quarter and full year results, and then we will take some questions from the investment community. A recording of this conference call will be available on our Investor Relations website shortly after the call has ended. Please note that this call may include forward-looking statements regarding Newsmax's financial performance and operating results. These statements are based on management's current expectations, and actual results could differ from what is stated due to certain factors identified on today's call and in the company's SEC filings. Additionally, this call will include certain non-GAAP financial measures. Reconciliations of non-GAAP financial measures are included in the earnings release and our SEC filings, which are available in the Investor Relations section of our website. I will now turn the call over to Chris Ruddy, Chief Executive Officer of Newsmax. Chris?

Thank you, Chris, and welcome, everyone, to our fourth quarter and full year 2025 earnings call. Fiscal year 2025 was a defining year for Newsmax and marked our first year as a public company. While many legacy television companies faced challenges in a nonelection year when audience levels, engagement and advertising demand typically normalize across the industry, Newsmax delivered strong growth and performed at the high end of our guidance range. This performance reflects the strength of our brand, the loyalty of our audience and the momentum of our multi-platform strategy. During the year, we expanded our distribution and reinforced our position as the fourth highest-rated cable news network while finishing #6 among all cable channels in total day ratings across the hundreds measured by Nielsen. We also exited the year with a strong debt-free balance sheet, providing a solid foundation to invest behind accelerated growth in 2026. For the full year, revenue increased 10.7% to $189.3 million, and broadcast revenue, which is key for us, grew 17.3%, driven by growth across advertising, affiliate fees, subscriptions and licensing. Affiliate fees specifically were up a solid 14.9%. This performance highlights the strength of our diversified revenue model and the sustained demand for independent values-driven journalism across all our platforms. We continue to see Newsmax as a high-growth company. At a time when many media businesses are contracting, our growth stands out, and we expect that momentum to continue into 2026. This performance is driven by our differentiated multi-platform model. We're not just a cable channel. We're not just a streaming FAST channel. We're not just a streaming plus service. We're not just a web digital company. We're all of these things and much more. We figured out how to integrate the digital media with the legacy TV media and how to move our brand across several platforms and do so synergistically, creating a scalable ecosystem poised for growth. This approach allows us to meet audiences wherever they are and leveraging our expanded distribution to further monetize engagement across multiple channels. While this model differs from traditional media businesses and may not always be fully reflected in how companies in our sector are evaluated, we believe continued execution and consistent growth will increasingly demonstrate the strength and durability of our unique multi-platform model. To put these results in context, it is helpful to revisit the priorities that guided us throughout 2025 and the progress we made against them. First, we expanded our cable and TV distribution footprint significantly. This year, we deepened domestic MVPD carriage agreements and relationships while accelerating international growth with Newsmax available in more than 100 countries by end of year. We expect this international licensing growth to continue throughout the year. In the fourth quarter of last year alone, we announced a slate of new international agreements, including launches in France, Israel and Cyprus as well as a brand license agreement to launch Newsmax Ukraine in the first half of 2026, which is currently underway. We also launched on Hulu TV and renewed our multiyear agreement with YouTube TV. Maintaining Newsmax in its base package and expanding Newsmax+ distribution through YouTube prime time channels beginning in 2026. Second, we scaled our audience and engagement across our various platforms. Newsmax, our cable channel, reached more than 58 million total viewers in 2025 according to Nielsen data. And we reach 50 million Americans regularly across all our platforms. We clearly are a top U.S. media property. We remain the fourth highest-rated cable news channel in the country, driven by consistent programming and a loyal diverse audience. That strong ratings performance fuels advertising demand and reinforces our distribution relationships. As our reach and ratings continue to grow, affiliate contracts are renewing at higher rates, another key driver of long-term growth. As our cable channel keeps getting stronger, we have seen encouraging growth on our streaming side with Newsmax2, our dedicated FAST channel. This channel is carried free on our app, on TV and on OTT streaming platforms such as Xumo, Pluto, Samsung Plus and almost all major platforms. Newsmax2 is also carried over the air as a Diginet channel in 64 markets across the U.S. We expanded into 18 additional markets in 2025 and are now present in 14 of the top 20 U.S. markets. We continue to invest in our programming, adding top-tier news talent, expanding broadcast hours and deploying other key resources with the goal of becoming the #1 news streaming channel. Legacy broadcasters lack both the capital and strategic focus to invest meaningfully in streaming news, positioning us in a very good position to capture this growing audience. Then there is our plus service, Newsmax+, our paid on-demand offering, which ended the year with more than 260,000 paid subscribers. This plus service not only benefits from our Newsmax and our Newsmax2 shows and talent, but also the addition of over 200 hours of new on-demand programming. This programming includes documentaries, films and family-friendly content, and we believe there is real space in the market for news and family-friendly entertainment app. Lastly, there is also our broader digital ecosystem with our social media following now surpassing 24 million, growing more than 17% year-over-year. Our third priority in 2025 was positioning Newsmax for long-term success as a public company. While the IPO process required significant time and resources, we completed it successfully while continuing strong operational growth. During the year, we also resolved a key legal settlement that removed a substantial overhang and absorbed much of the upfront costs associated with our transition to public ownership. These milestones give us improved visibility into our underlying cost structure. Combined with a strong cash position, they provide a solid foundation to invest and grow in 2026 and beyond. Looking ahead, we see meaningful opportunities in today's evolving media landscape. There remains significant white space for independent reliable journalism that resonates with audiences who have lost trust in Legacy Media. Our engagement metrics demonstrate that Newsmax has become a trusted alternative, gaining share and building a highly loyal audience. That loyalty reinforces our ratings, strengthens our distribution relationships and supports monetization across affiliate, advertising and subscription revenue streams. Newsmax has a proven track record of expanding its audience and growing revenue across both strong and more challenging market environments. While doing so with a more efficient cost structure than many of our peers. While traditional cable remains a vital part of our business and an important driver of audience growth across our ecosystem, we recognize that the future of news consumption is evolving rapidly. Viewers are increasingly turning to streaming and on-demand platforms, and Newsmax is uniquely positioned to lead in that environment. As mentioned, we were born as a digital media company, and that digital backbone continues to be one of our greatest competitive advantages. It was really key to us becoming a major cable property when others entered and failed. As the media landscape continues to shift, we will remain nimble and find and meet audiences where they are, delivering trusted values-driven journalism on all platforms for all people. Although we are encouraged by the growth of our free streaming platforms and digital presence, Newsmax+ remains a strategic focus as we work to unlock its full potential. We are not satisfied with our current subscription trajectory. However, we felt it need better content from our channels and more on-demand video content, and we have been moving those pieces into position. While we view the current pace of subscriber additions as a short-term headwind rather than a structural issue, we are taking deliberate steps to improve engagement, strengthen retention and translate expanded premium content into accelerated subscription growth. Investments in exclusive programming, product and tech enhancements are helping with expanded distribution and are central to this effort. Despite near-term subscription softness, we expect 2026 to mark a year of accelerated revenue growth for Newsmax. Notably, this acceleration is driven by underlying business fundamentals rather than political cycles. As we move beyond the transition year and gain improved cost visibility, we also anticipate stronger operating leverage and better alignment between revenue growth and our investment strategy. Our long-term vision is to establish Newsmax as one of the most trusted and influential news brands in America and around the world. We are building a multi-platform media company that started in digital, grew successfully into cable, the only company to do so and now engages massive audiences across streaming, mobile apps, social media, publishing and international markets. We entered 2026 from a position of strength with financial flexibility, improved cost transparency and a disciplined growth strategy. We are confident in the foundation we have built and in our ability to execute in the years ahead because, frankly, we have incredible support from our readers, our viewers, our advertisers and you, our shareholders. We are thankful to you and to them. I now turn it over to Darryle to walk through the financial performance.

Thank you, Chris, and thank you, everyone, for joining us today. As Chris highlighted, we delivered full year revenue at the high end of our guidance range and closed 2025 with solid momentum. Importantly, we exited the year with $131 million (sic) [ $131.3 million ] in cash and short-term investments and no debt, providing meaningful financial flexibility. With the majority of IPO-related and other onetime costs now behind us, we have improved visibility into our underlying operating structure. That clarity, combined with continued strength across affiliate revenues, supports our expectation for accelerated growth in 2026 and positions us to deploy capital with confidence. Turning to our full year results. In fiscal year 2025, we delivered $189.3 million in total revenues, representing a 10.7% increase year-over-year. Turning to our reportable segments. Total broadcasting revenues grew 17.3% year-over-year to $153.3 million in fiscal year 2025. Growth in broadcasting was driven by an increase in advertising revenue due to increased demand and pricing, expanded distribution, increasing reach across our streaming platforms, continued affiliate fee growth from new and renewed agreements with higher rates and incremental contribution from Newsmax+ subscriptions. Total digital revenues decreased 10.9% year-over-year to $35.9 million in fiscal year 2025. The decreases in advertising and subscription revenue are largely due to a more challenging prior year election comparison, partially offset by growth in product sales. As a reminder, our digital segment generates revenue from a mix of online advertising, including display, e-mail, other online placements and print, subscription products such as our health and financial newsletters, Newsmax magazine and membership programs and e-commerce primarily through the sale of nutraceuticals and books. Now turning to our revenue by component. Total advertising revenues increased to $120.3 million, a 10.2% year-over-year gain by higher linear television advertising resulting from increased demand and pricing, supported by expanded audience reach, partially offset by lower digital advertising following the election cycle. Affiliate revenues increased 14.9% year-over-year to $30.6 million due to new contractual relationships as well as rate increases to existing ones. Subscription revenues of $27.5 million were up 2.6% year-over-year with increases to Newsmax+, offset by reductions in digital publication subscriptions. Product sale revenues increased 20.7% year-over-year to $7.3 million, primarily driven by increased book sales, reflecting stronger performance across key titles within the company's publishing business. Other revenues, which largely represent licensing was $3.6 million, up from $2.3 million from the prior year, primarily driven by new international license deals. We reported a net loss of $99.5 million for the full year 2025, a 37.8% decline compared to a net loss of $72.2 million in the prior year, primarily reflecting $78.6 million in legal settlement expenses, along with stock-based compensation costs, noncash derivative and warrant liability adjustments and higher production and programming investments, partially offset by higher revenues and affiliate and licensing fee growth. Full year adjusted EBITDA was a loss of $6.5 million compared to a positive adjusted EBITDA of $10.2 million last year, reflecting continued strategic investments in content, talent, technology and public company infrastructure. We ended the year with $20.4 million in cash and cash equivalents and $110.9 million in investments, bringing our total cash and investment position to approximately $131.3 million. This compares to $82.4 million at the end of 2024 and reflects the strength of our balance sheet following our initial public offering and related financing activities. Now turning to our fourth quarter results. We delivered $52.2 million in total revenues, representing a 9.6% increase year-over-year. Breaking this down by revenue stream for the quarter, first, starting with our reportable segments. Total broadcasting revenues grew 12.6% year-over-year to $42.5 million in the fourth quarter of 2025, underscoring continued growth even in a nonelection year. Our growth in broadcasting was driven by affiliate fee revenue growth, increased demand and pricing for broadcasting ad revenue and licensing growth. Total digital revenues declined 2% year-over-year to $9.7 million in the fourth quarter of 2025. Growth in product sales was more than offset by declines in advertising and subscription revenue. Now turning to our revenue by component. Advertising revenues increased to $33.9 million, a 5.9% year-over-year gain, mainly due to an increase in our audience reach as we expanded our MVPD partnerships, offsetting a lower digital advertising coming out of an election year. Affiliate revenues increased 17.9% year-over-year to $7.8 million, driven by new contractual relationships as well as rate increases that went into effect earlier this year. Subscription revenues of $6.6 million were down 7% year-over-year, driven primarily by the post-election cycle normalization. Product sale revenues increased 64.2% year-over-year to $2.6 million, primarily driven by increased book sales. Other revenues was $1.2 million, up from $400,000 in 2024, attributed to expanded international licensing deals compared to the prior period. We reported a quarterly net loss of $3 million, a 56.5% improvement compared to a net loss of $6.9 million in the prior year quarter. This improvement in net loss was driven primarily by higher strategic investments in headcount, programming and production capabilities to support the ongoing expansion and enhancement of our content offering, stock-based compensation costs, offset by higher broadcasting advertising, affiliate fees, book sales and licensing revenue. Our quarterly adjusted EBITDA was $1.3 million loss, a decrease of $3.8 million from the amount reported in the same quarter last year, reflecting higher production and programming expense, increased personnel, legal, consulting and public company costs. Turning to our fiscal year 2026 full year guidance. We expect full year 2026 revenue to be between $212 million to $216 million, representing 13% growth year-over-year at the midpoint of the range, an acceleration on the growth we realized in 2025. It is important to note that we anticipate this growth to be structural and not cyclical. We do not anticipate political advertising to be a meaningful contributor to our outlook. Instead, growth is expected to be primarily driven by structural momentum, including affiliate fee expansion, reflecting rate increases and new distribution channels. At the same time, we will continue investing in premium content and digital monetization initiatives to support further upside across our platforms. From a profitability standpoint, we anticipate an improved operating profile driven by reduced legal and public company transition expenses. In closing, we are proud of the progress we've made in our first year as a public company and the strong finish to 2025. As we enter the new year, we remain focused on disciplined execution, thoughtful investment and driving long-term shareholder value. With our diversified revenue streams, scalable multi-platform strategy and enhanced access to capital, we believe Newsmax is well positioned to build on this momentum and deliver sustainable growth in the years ahead. Thank you for your time today. We look forward to updating you on our continued progress during the next quarter's earnings call. Now we would like to open the line for analyst questions. Operator?

[Operator Instructions] And the first question today is coming from Thomas Forte from Maxim Group.

So Chris and Darryle, congrats on a strong quarter and year. I have one question and one follow-up question. So my first question is, Chris, when you look at the current media environment, what gives you confidence you can continue to take market share and grow ratings?

Tom, thank you for that question. If you look at this country and the media landscape right now, the country is clearly divided politically. We see it in the polling numbers of President Trump and major issues impacting the country. It's almost a 50-50 divide. On the left side of that divide, you see a lot of media organizations all competing for that audience. On the right side of that divide, especially in the television media world, the cable world, there's really only 2 competitors, Fox News and Newsmax, and it's a huge market. It's half the country. And so we think that there's huge market share for us to gain Fox is a very powerful player in that market. It was an early on started 30 years ago, over 30 years ago. The founder of Fox famously said, people said I was a genius, Roger Ailes. He said people said I was a genius. I said there should be a media organization that serves half the country. And Newsmax's view is that there can be more than one competitor in that field and we've proven it, and we continue to grow. So I think there's a lot of reasons that we're growing. But the fact that there's not blue ocean, but pretty darn close to blue ocean for us to grow in is really very positive for us.

Excellent. And then for my follow-up, Darryle touched upon this in his comments on the outlook. But at a high level, how should we think about your operating performance in a year where there's midterm elections?

Well, any time there's elections in this country, there's a lot of engagement. The presidential, we always call the Super Bowl of elections that happens every 4 years. But remember, it's really already started in some ways. It used to start a few months before the primary period. Now it's almost continuous, but we're going to really see a ramp-up of the presidential. And the congressionals are going to be a huge battle. There's already indications. The Democrats are doing pretty good in the polls. The Republicans have a lot of work to do, but that's going to translate into a lot of dollars at both the local level, and we think some money will come into the national level. But we benefit not so much by the amount of money that comes in because of political advertising. A lot of that in the congressional election, frankly, goes into the state and local media. But we benefit by the huge amount of engagement that happens across the country because we're covering all of the elections in 50 states. So we think it will be a big, big benefit for us.

And the next question will be from Michael Kupinski from NOBLE Capital Markets.

Congrats for a great finish for the year. Just a couple of questions here. In terms of your revenue guide for 2026, I know that you mentioned affiliate fee growth. I was wondering if you could just give us a sense of how much of the revenue growth is being driven by affiliate fee versus advertising revenues? And just maybe add some color in terms of the biggest delta affecting the revenue growth guide there. And then if you could just talk a little bit about your renegotiation cycles for your affiliate fees and maybe give us a sense of how many subscribers are coming up for renewals in 2026?

I'm going to let Darryle answer that, but I will just say that most cable companies, cable channels get 70% to 80% of the revenues from affiliate fees and a very smaller share from advertising, some even do less than 20% in advertising. Newsmax has built our whole channel, our whole network almost entirely on advertising in the first 10 years of the company's history. It's only in recent years that we started getting cable fees. People said we would not get any cable fees. Every cable operator want every major system and everyone pays us a cable license fee. And those fees continue to grow. So we believe there's a lot of room for us to continue to grow, and Darryle can give a little more insight into that. But it's a very positive trend for us.

Thank you, Chris. Thank you, Michael, for the question. Yes, as Chris said, we actually believe that affiliate fees is a very positive contributor to us, especially for our guidance for 2026. The momentum in affiliate fee revenue is going to be coming from a lot of the renewals that we've been working with that really is kind of showing with our investment over the last several years. Now one of the things that I think is key is when you look at the affiliate fee momentum, it's clearly the biggest driver that we're looking at for 2026. As we've talked about in the past, a lot of our contracts dated back to when we first started having affiliate fees in 2023, and that gives us the opportunity for multiyear repricing when they come up for renewal, even in the declining ecosystem. Live news is still a very important component of the MVPDs trying to retain their subscriber base, and that is also something that works to Newsmax's advantage when we're going through the negotiations on the renewal of these affiliate fees. Now there is delays in monetization due to launch timing and subscriber availability and adoption. But overall, affiliate fees is definitely one of the major drivers for 2026 guidance. But we also think that there's going to be more than one revenue stream that's going to provide benefits to 2026. We think that continued growth in advertising is going to be important, as Chris said, that even though we're not going to get a huge expectation for political advertising for midterms, it does drive an overall increase in engagement in the news, and that should increase overall demand. And then we are seeing some opportunities with licensing as well.

Got you. And then I know that, obviously, your investment in programming has obviously been paying off. Obviously, your ratings have improved, your audience engagement has gone up. I was just wondering if you could just talk a little bit about the trajectory of programming and programming costs over the next 12 to 18 months. I know that you have interest in expanding field offices and going after some higher profile content and so forth. I was just wondering if you could just talk a little bit about your thoughts of the programming cost as you go into 2026.

Well, we're not completely sold on the idea that if you pay somebody a huge contract that might be famous, they're suddenly going to bring a large audience. And there's very few individuals out there that are of the type and level that can bring audience. I think even Bill O'Reilly, who left Fox had a premium value at the time he left Fox and he his declined quite a bit since then. He sort of had some health issues and semi retired. So there's not many people like him. But if you look back at the founding of Fox, Bill O'Reilly was not a national name. He had been on a TV syndicated program, but he was not known, certainly in the news in the hard news genre of cable. Sean Hannity had never even been on television before. And many of the people at Fox were known names. In fact, the most famous person of Fox had the lowest rating was Paula Zahn and she only lasted about a year. So there's -- it's a funny thing where people are looking for really exceptional content now, we believe. Exciting personalities are looking for fresh personalities, and we are constantly on the look for those where we've been changing our lineup, taking some of our own talent and promoting them. Carl Higbie has been vying for #1 on our network. He starts at 6:00. He's a former Navy Seal, extremely popular in social media. Rod Schmidt is still #1 in our Nightly program. He was not famous before he came to Newsmax. Now he's very famous. So we feel like growing our own talent organically and matching them with people that are veteran journalists like Greta Van Susteren, who leads our 4:00 evening news program or after late afternoon news program is the best way for us to continue growing that. You're going to see more moves on our streaming channel, Newsmax2, we see a lot of potential growth for that channel. We also have a talent lineup there. So we're excited about it, but we're not necessarily buying into the concept that you just pay a big contract and you get an immediate audience.

And I might add a little bit Michael, but, I'm sorry, go ahead.

No, go ahead. I'm sorry.

I was going to say I might add a little bit that we do view 2026 as continued investment in programming and content. As Chris has detailed, and I think really as our results have detailed, the investment in the programming really pays off in a number of different areas. So we've talked in the past about how investment in programming on our N1 channel has a number of benefits across multiple revenue streams, right? It helps in terms of building the overall ratings and demand for the channel, which is going to increase advertising dollars. It helps because then the product that we're putting out for Newsmax+ is a higher quality product, and that would be something that people are also interested in. And we've talked a number of times about continuing to investment in N2, right, because N2 has a long-term strategic value to the company with FAST channels, and we continue to see investment in that. So Newsmax1 we get the benefit of not only the demand for advertising and the Newsmax+ subscription potential to make that a better value-driven product, but it also helps because then the higher ratings help with any kind of affiliate fee renewal negotiations. And then investment in Newsmax2 is obviously a long-term strategic objective for the company. And as Chris said, for Newsmax+ want to be the leading streaming platform on the national news level, and we've added over 200 hours of programming to that. So we do view continued investment in 2026 is important to the overall strategy of the company. And I think that some of the results that we've had in 2025 kind of bear out the fact that those investments are strategically important to the long-term future of the company.

I would add that if you look at the investment of Newsmax into talent so far, we've been pretty darn good. Considering last year, as I mentioned in my introductory remarks, we were #6 of cable in total day. There's hundreds of cable channels rated by Nielsen. We were #6. We did not spend the billions of dollars that other cable channels did to build out their ecosystem. We spent a fraction of what Fox spent in its initial years. So I think we're on the right path, and we've shown and demonstrated by the ratings independent of us that we're doing the right thing, which is focusing on quality talent that resonates with the audience. We're going to do the same thing, as Darryle said, in our Newsmax+ service and the Newsmax2 channel, continuing finding talent that resonates with the audience.

It's certainly remarkable. Just if I may, just 2 quick questions. I was just wondering if just to chat a little bit about the litigation with Fox. And I know that you might not be able to comment specifically on the litigation. But I was just wondering if in terms of the litigation itself, if there were ancillary benefits to the litigation that maybe it shined a light on some of the industry practices that have happened in the industry and maybe that has helped you a little bit in your negotiations with affiliate fees and so forth.

Well, I'm not sure it's helped with affiliate negotiations that we've had, but we've had a situation where we know that Fox was so fearful of us. They put in their agreements with other cable and MVPDs that they couldn't put Newsmax into their basic tier. And if they did, they had to pull down a lot of other Fox channels like Fox Business that have very little ratings and pay high fees. So -- and we know that was true in a number of these, especially the virtual MVPDs, companies like Sling and Hulu and others that they apparently have these agreements called drag-down rights, which were blocking mechanisms to -- if a company like Sling took us down in their basic tier, they'd have to spend $20 million or $30 million in fees to Fox to take all these channels that people didn't watch. And so they were very clever on how they did it. They didn't do it with all the operators, but they did it with some of the virtual MVPDs and we'll find out where else as we go through the litigation. We think it's extremely important to let Fox know that these bullying tactics won't work, that we're not afraid. We will take them on, and we want to ensure that in the future, we will be protected. We are seeking very significant damages as we prove that they had engaged in these practices, we believe are anticompetitive. And I might mention that if we do -- if we are found to be vindicated in the court proceedings, they will -- Fox will have to pay triple damages trouble damages to us. So we do see and we have a very respected law firm, Kellogg, one of the leaders in the antitrust area that's leading the litigation. So we think it's important for a number of reasons, including the future that we're not blocked, but also to make sure that we get reparations for any of the dealings that they did over the past 10 years to try to stop us.

One last question. You indicated you expanded to over 100 countries. I was just wondering what's the monetization strategy internationally? And when do you think international becomes a meaningful revenue contributor to the company?

Well, the -- we have a two-pronged approach to licensing. One is we take our American channel, Newsmax and allow other cable and other operators and distributors around the world to run it. And in return, they would give us a share of their advertising or fees. So every deal is different and every country is different situation. The second option for us is people like the Newsmax brand, and there are countries where they want to have a Newsmax channel in local language. And we started this in Serbia with United Cable and it's morphed into Telecom. Serbia bought the license, which is the largest telecom company in the Balkans. And they have a channel that's the #1 rated, as I understand it, cable news channel in the Balkans is Newsmax Balkans. And we are very excited about the growth and potential there of additional licenses. We get much higher fees for the use of our name, and we cooperate with them on news, especially international news and other help. And we are looking forward to growing the number of those type of branded licenses in 2026. And we have a number of things in the works, obviously, but we do think that it will continue to grow. I mentioned in my introductory remarks, it's an area where we see a lot of activity right now, and I'm hoping to report to investors soon on some developments there that will be very positive.

Thank you. This does conclude today's Q&A session, and it is also concludes today's conference. You may disconnect your lines at this time. Thank you for your participation.