Earnings Labs

LSB Industries, Inc. (LXU)

Q3 2015 Earnings Call· Fri, Nov 6, 2015

$15.19

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Transcript

Operator

Operator

Greetings and welcome to the LSB Industries third quarter 2015 conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. A question-and-answer session will follow the formal presentation. [Operator Instructions]. As a reminder, this conference is being recorded. It is now my pleasure to introduce your host, Ms. Kristy Carver, Treasurer. Thank you. You may begin.

Kristy Carver

Analyst

Thank you, Donna. Please note that today's call will include forward-looking statements and because these statements are based on the company's current intent, expectations and projections, they are not guarantees of future performance and a variety of factors could cause actual results to differ materially. As this call will include references to non-GAAP result, please reference this morning's press release in the Investors section of lsbindustries.com for further information regarding forward-looking statements and reconciliations of non-GAAP result to GAAP result. At this time, I would like to go ahead and turn the call over to Dan for opening remarks.

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Thank you, Kristy and good morning to everyone. Thank you for joining this morning's 2015 third quarter conference call. I will first review the management changes during the quarter and then provide further information on operating status of Pryor as well as an update on the El Dorado construction progress. I refer you to page three in our third quarter materials. This has been a transitional and transformational period for the company. The experienced active Board of Directors has focused on El Dorado completion, securing construction financing, increasing reliability and implementing enhanced governance practices. As we previously reported, the company's management team has undergone significant changes during the quarter. I am now serving as the Interim CEO and Richard Sanders has stepped up to serve as Interim Executive Vice President of Chemical Manufacturing. Richard has a very strong history of running world class nitrogen production facilities. He brings key operating discipline to our chemical facilities, construction and production activities. Additionally, we have restructured both the El Dorado construction responsibilities and the chemical manufacturing operations. We are implementing further positive changes throughout the company and driving accountability, a results oriented focus and a strong sense of urgency. We have begun initiatives on sales channel improvements for both the chemical and climate control businesses as well as reliability improvements for the chemical facilities. Pryor came back online in late September 2015 and has continued to operate very well since then. Cherokee and Baytown continue to have excellent performance. During the quarter we had several significant events that will position the company to improve going forward. First, we have secured key strategic financing to complete construction of our El Dorado expansion. While it's more expensive than we had anticipated, we hope to see improvements to our capital structure cost within 12 to 18…

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Thanks, Dan. As Dan indicated, our second quarter results were disappointing compared to last year and what we expect going into the quarter. Page six of the presentation provides a consolidated summary statement of operations for the third quarter of 2015 and the first nine months of 2015. Total net sales were down for the quarter driven by lower chemical sales, which contributed to the lower gross profit and I will go into some detail in the next few slides. Overall, SG&A increase $4.2 million in the third quarter versus the third quarter of 2014. That increase was primarily driven by higher corporate expenses of approximately $2.5 million arising primarily from one-time severance costs for three senior executives, an increase in SG&A at our chemical business of approximately $1.2 million primarily from higher training expenses related to the incremental staff hired to run the new ammonia plant at El Dorado, increased railcar lease expenses related to low density ammonium nitrate sales and an increase in salary and wages at El Dorado for the ammonia plant staff hired, an increase in SG&A at our climate control business of approximately $400,000 related to higher warranty costs for specific claims and an increasing freight cost as a percentage of sales from a shift in product and customer mix, which was partially offset by lower personnel costs and advertising related expenses. One thing I do want to point out that included in the third quarter of 2015 is a $39.7 million write-down of our working interest in the Marcellus shale. This was caused by the continued reduction in natural gas prices and a push out of the timing of our true schedule causing slower well development and the movement of several wells from the producing category to the probable category, all causing a reduction…

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Thanks, Mark. I am referring you to the chemical facilities operational status on page 13. In El Dorado, the new nitric acid concentrator is completed and began initial production in June 2015. The new nitric acid plant is starting initial production next week and will ramp up to full rates in the near-term. The ammonia plant construction is progressing well for mechanical completion at the end of January 2016 and the ammonia production is planned to commence early in the second quarter of 2016. At Pryor, the ammonia plant is running at full rates of approximately 700 tons per day. Cherokee's ammonia production is running at approximately 515 tons per day. These levels of production are historical highs. Baytown continues to run at plant rates with excellent safety results. Turning to the El Dorado construction timeline on page 14. We have included a construction timeline on the ammonia plant, which indicates that we plan to be mechanically complete at the end of January 2016. We plan on producing ammonia in the second quarter of 2016. Page 15 shows aerial shots of the facility. Turning to page 16, the El Dorado expansion capital spending. As I noted earlier, the project engineering work was performed just in advance of the construction teams and the ability to accurately estimate and manage cost was limited. We believe we have resolved both of those issues with the assistance of Hatch Engineering, Performance Contractors and ParFab Contractors. The additional cost increases without the owners contingency amount of $46 million totaled approximately $111 million. The summarized categories of cost increases consist of the following, piping and mechanical labor and materials $70 million, engineering and project management $14 million, scaffolding and crane rentals $11 million, electrical installation $5 million and additional equipment, weather delays and other miscellaneous costs $11 million, which aggregate to the $111 million. We are working aggressively to reduce these costs and bring the project to completion with limited or no use of the contingency amounts. We believe the completion of this project will provide significant value creation for shareholders. Referring to page 17, remaining El Dorado project costs. This page only includes construction costs and does not include the general contingency of $46 million or capitalized interest. Costs incurred to-date aggregate to $531 million. From October 2015 through project completion in the second quarter of 2016, we expect to spend between $201 million and $224 million. The majority of the work to be completed consists of labor and materials associated with piping and mechanical activities. Page 18 provides a volume outlook for the fourth quarter of 2015 for our chemical business. Page 19 shows key aspects that we are focused on to create value for our shareholders. We believe with strong Board support and focused management, we can accomplish meaningful change in the remainder of 2015 and beyond. That concludes our prepared comments. And now, I would like to open it up for -and-answers. Donna?

Operator

Operator

[Operator Instructions]. Our first question is coming from Roger Spitz of Bank of America. Please proceed with your question.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Hi. Thank you. Good morning.

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Good morning, Roger.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Good morning.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Regarding the 12% $50 million secured notes of 2019, will they be trying to pursue with the first lien, the 7.75%, the first liens of 2019, meaning will they be secured by exactly the same collateral?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Yes. They will.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

And will there be any differences in the incurrence covenants from those 7.75%? Or will there be any maintenance covenants in those notes?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

No. None at all. They will be the same.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Okay. The same. And, presumably you had incurred that under the $50 million, these bonds under the basket and current liens under the $50 million general debt incurrence basket. So if that's true, I am assuming that that basket is done. Does that mean the only other basket in current liens at all would be the, say, $60 million liens related to the capital leases, though that would not be on any collateral?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Yes.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Perfect. In the past you talked about the $21 million related to the El Dorado cogen facility. Has that been separately financed yet? Or is included in what you are talking about today?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

No. Roger, as I mentioned earlier, we have a commitment from a lender. So we do expect to close that this quarter.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Okay. Would that then be under that capital lease carve out?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Yes.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

And lastly for me, the preferred stock, the 14% cumulative preferred stock, can that be paid in cash or not be paid in cash at the Board's sole discretion? And if not paid in cash, if cumulative, would they be paid at some point in the future, if they are to be paid? Or would they at that level or would they pick up?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Yes. So the Board has an option to pay in cash or in kind. And they will elect that every six months. And if for some reason the Board elects to not pay anything, then they will just be cumulative and they would be compounding, if it's not paid.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

They would be picking. It would be picking.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Yes. Effectively, yes.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Okay. I am sorry. One last one. Just so I have got this trade, the Q4 2015 CapEx and 2016 CapEx?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Yes. So if we go back to page 11 in the presentation, so the Q4, as I said, should be $210 million to $235 million in total.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

In Q4.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Yes.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Okay.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

And then there is $70 million to $75 million of EDC project costs that will come in the first half of 2016, mostly in the first quarter.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

In first quarter. What would be the total 2016 CapEx expectation guidance?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

We haven't come out with that yet.

Roger Spitz

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Thank you very much.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is coming from David Deterding of Wells Fargo. Please proceed with your question.

David Deterding

Analyst · Wells Fargo. Please proceed with your question

Hi guys. Thanks for taking my question. Just on El Dorado, you were talking about Pryor and Cherokee running at record rates. I think last quarter you told us that you would expect EBITDA negative until you guys got the new ammonia plant up and running at El Dorado. Is that still your expectation?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Wells Fargo. Please proceed with your question

Yes. It is.

David Deterding

Analyst · Wells Fargo. Please proceed with your question

Okay. And then the last one I had is just, in the press release you said, we are still pursuing previously disclosed strategic alternatives. Does that mean that you guys are still, once you get this thing up and running, strategic alternatives and meaning potentially splitting or selling one of these businesses?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Wells Fargo. Please proceed with your question

Well, I think you said it correctly. Our primary focus is to get it up and running. So that's our number one, number two and number three objective, is the same. I think the Board wants us to and the Board will continue to look at the value creation opportunities for shareholders and will consider all types of different options.

David Deterding

Analyst · Wells Fargo. Please proceed with your question

Great. Thank you, guys.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is coming from Dan Mannes of Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Thanks. Good morning, guys.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Good morning, Dan.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

So I guess this is mostly for Dan. I was hoping maybe to back a little bit more over the timeline as it relates to the cost increases. I guess my question is, you highlighted some of the challenges in terms of the reengineering plan, but that wasn't new, that's not something you guys learned about now. I mean that's been the case since this project originally embarked. And I guess maybe I had thought that you guys already hired Hatch at the time when you put out the Q2 cost increase. So I wondered if you can go back through the schedule and help me out on those two topics, because again, I think myself and obviously everyone else is a little bit surprised by another increase here.

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Sure. I mean, we had hired Hatch earlier. They were originally hired to help with commissioning activities. Part of their scope was expanded in July to include some other project management activities, but when I came on September 1, I engaged them specifically to do detailed cost studies and activities surrounding the overall project costs. The did do very detailed cost studies, P&ID looks, all the cost estimates and then they went through and scrubbed all the other areas of the contractors and timelines, project management, things like that. So when I came onboard, we engaged them to do a very detailed piece of work. Prior to that, it wasn't that detailed.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

So then how did the July cost, where was the estimating coming from for that? Because again, I would like to go back through the exact script, but it was certainly indicated there were a lot of third party resources that were engaged in order to make that estimation. So I guess I am trying to understand why these consultants are better than those consultants? It's a little bit troubling from the outside?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Well, keep in mind, when, I think in the last, around July 1, we had terminated one of the piping contractors that was not performing. And on July 1, we brought on two new piping contractors, Performance and ParFab. At that point in time, the detail engineering wasn't done and they were making, I would say, their best estimates at that time based on the information they had. And we had not engaged Hatch to do that detail cost study. So those cost estimates at that time were based upon Leidos' information as a general contractor and with the new guys, ParFab and Performance just coming onsite, been onsite less than a month and probably didn't have as detailed information as they could have. We subsequently in September launched on that to get very detailed estimates to go down to the individual pipe runs, estimate each individual pipe run and a much more detailed and thorough cost review was done in very early September.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Okay. Maybe I will take it offline, because I feel like we are missing a step. But I guess the other thing I will ask is, I mean since you guys have been on the Board for over a year, was there a recognition of may be the challenges with the engineering plan, which it sounds like, in hindsight, was pretty obviously wasn't going to work, but was that something you guys were aware of earlier and I guess I am wondering why it wasn't addressed until more recently?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Well, I think we were aware of it, certainly when we had the initial $50 million cost increase, the Board was aware of it. We were certainly aware of the July increase and the effort that around that. I think the level of detail that we recognized was not there in the August estimates. The Board was not comfortable with that and clearly as a result we made changes to the management, the senior management and I immediately launched on detailed cost estimate work. So that's the sequence of events and that's what occurred.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Okay. Following up briefly on the El Dorado and the current operations, I think in your press release you said it was about $15 million drag on the quarter. Can you break that out, how much of that, if at all, relates to training expenses and things like that for the expansion versus the under absorption, given the lower production levels currently?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Yes. I would say, about $0.5 million is training and then there is probably another $0.5 million related to the staff that we put brought on related to the ammonia plant. And then we had probably another $500,000 to $600,000 of additional railcar lease expense, as I talked about last quarter and that's just going to carry through every quarter. And then we had probably lower, high-density ammonium nitrate sales and selling prices was probably another $800,000 with about $4.5 million of the loss related to low-density ammonium nitrate tons that we sold versus last year when we had the Orica contract.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

So the $15 million year-on-year, is that the absolute loss of the facility?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

No. I am talking year-over-year.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Okay. I guess I am just trying to find out how much of a get back we have, just by having even breakeven production where the ammonia nitrate actually covers the cost of the ammonium nitrate plant and you are basically able to get the ammonia margin. I guess I am wondering what the get back is versus where we are right now. You have talked about the $80 million to $90 million on El Dorado, but that doesn't count just the recovery of the current losses. And I want to make sure we understand that point as well.

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Yes. I would say, you are right. So we talked about $90 million, which was really a comparison of 2014, when we had Orica versus 2017. And so if you look at 2015 versus 2017, that $90 million probably goes to about $130. We end up at the same place, but we are starting from bit deeper in the hole.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Got it. That's helpful. And then lastly, you mentioned on the climate side some of the pricing pressures. On the other side, you should be getting some tailwinds on the raw side. We are seeing lower steel, lower copper, all kinds of lower raws. Is that maybe contributing to the pricing side? And are you able to maintain margin? Or is there something else going on we should be thinking about?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

No. I think it's just a very competitive market. Yes, we are getting benefits of raw material decreases but I think it is a very competitive market out there and all manufacturers are looking for the additional effort. I think the weakness in geothermal sales for the homeowners, it has maybe a small our result of that, but it's just competition.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

And what's the pacing as it relates to margin enhancement in that? And that will be my final question. Because you guys laid out a longer term plan to get to 15% EBITDA margins at climate and we saw some sequential improvement, but can you maybe walk me through any steps that have been taken or where we are in that process?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Sure. There is several. We are intensifying our OpEx with our OpEx plan and hitting that harder. In addition to that, we are bringing in some folks, some outside help to look at our sales channel and our go-to-market process. So I think we are looking both on the manufacturing side and on the sales and distribution side of how we can enhance those margins and what we can do to A, add more reps and B, look at our go-to-market activities and see what changes may or may not be needed there.

Dan Mannes

Analyst · Avondale Partners. Please proceed with your question

Okay. Thank you.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is coming from Joe Mondilo of Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question.

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Good morning, guys. Dan, you have been on the Board for over a year now. You have been in the CEO spot for a few months. Can you just give us a sense of the changes going on in upper level management and how we can be a little more confident on this story going forward, just considering the numerous missteps over the last couple of years?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Well, I mean, look I think there has been a significant change at the Board level initiated the last year with Bill Murdy and myself and Richard Sanders coming on the board. Both Richard and I have significant nitrogen experience, him from the operational side, me more from the financial and business side and then Bill Murdy came on with extensive experience in the HVAC business. And then this past year, there were five new members who came on the Board, all with the significant experience. Two of those from the nitrogen and fertilizer space and one other from the chemical space and then two other highly qualified Directors. I think when you see the quality of the new Directors that have been added over the last the year and change, you have got a significantly enhanced Board and a very, very active and thoughtful Board. In addition to that, we have changed quite a few of our governance practices. We have tighten those up. And you have, what I call, an energetic, highly involved and very helpful Board. I think you will continue to see that as Mark pointed out in our release today, Security Benefit is going to get three Board seats. So they will have high-quality folks on the Board as well. And so we are looking forward to them joining this Board. So from a Board perspective, I think you have got good things in place. From transitioning the CEO position and other senior executive positions, I think the Board took a look at where we thought the business needs to go, what we need to do to drive accountability, to drive performance improvements and to drive a sense of urgency. And I have been tasked with that along with Richard Sanders and Mark to drive…

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Okay. What is the risk of closing on the deal with Security Is that pretty much a done deal?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

We have a full commitment lever. So it's just completion of docs, as Mark said, I believe, we expect the $50 million to be closed today and likely funded very early next week. And then on the preferred, we just have to get the definitive document. There is probably some HSR, hopefully get early termination of HSR and that should fund very shortly after that, but no later than December 31. So there are no contingencies out there other than HSR review that really could hold us up on it.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Joe, there were no due diligence else or anything like that. It's a firm commitment, just subject to final documentation.

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Okay. And I know Dan asked several questions. I know you gave some prepared commentary. Just a little unclear regarding the last four months. How this thing sort of spun out of control? Several different increases in estimates of the total value of this project. I am not a construction guy. I am not an EPC analyst. Just trying to get a better idea of how hundreds of millions of dollars have gotten lost in the estimation? Who is at fault here? I know you had some problems with the subcontractor. Is it largely that? Is it more so prior management? Any color on this in addition, would be helpful, because obviously, it's very frustrating.

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Sure. And I understand your frustration. Let me step back a minute and talk about, when we originally put this project cost estimates together, that was not an engineered estimate. And what I mean by that, is the engineering work really, you have a very, very high level engineering work. The detail engineering work wasn't there. It was not a plus or minus 10% estimate. Okay. It was not. I think we probably didn't do as good a job as we should have or could have on that and the cost should have been probably a plus or minus 50% estimate at that time with the level of engineering work that was done. Now let's take that piece and move to the next piece. We decided to bring the large bore piping. We decided to bring a large bore piping up from Donaldson. That was dismantled, as I said in my prepared remarks, in a manner that did not allow efficient reinstallation at the new facility. And so what has occurred is a significant amount of additional labor, materials, scaffolding cost, manpower candidly to reassemble that pipe. And that's something that we clearly did not anticipate in these cost estimates early on. We anticipated some of it in the August estimate, but the fact of that matter is, it's taken us significantly more time. I think early on the project there were a lot of weather delays. We talked about that earlier. And then clearly the contractor. Just that point on the engineering, of not having an engineered estimate. If you look at the components in our materials and we talked about the ammonia plant, the nitric acid plant and concentrator and then you will recall the OSBL or outside battery limits work and you look at that nitric acid…

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Okay. Thank you for that. And then in terms of cash flow regarding once you get the plant up and running and dealing with the balance sheet and everything, how do you tackle off of that? Are you planning on paying back the preferred stock immediately? Is that the plan in terms of cash flow and winding down the leverage on everything? Would that be where you start? Or walk us through what the plan is on a cash flow basis over the next year or two on the balance sheet?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Yes. So I think I will answer that two ways. Any excess cash flow that we have, I think we have looked to try and delever. And so that would be the primary focus. But as Dan alluded to in his prepared comments about improving the capital structure over the next 12 to 18 months, the reality is when the plant is up and running and producing in the way we think it can produce, our first call date in our senior notes is August of next year. and we also have the ability to call the preferred at any point in time at par plus accrued and unpaid dividends. So I think it's very likely that we when we get to the end of next year, you would see us refinance all the debt assuming that the debt markets are acceptable and open to that.

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Okay. That does it for me. Actually, one last question. The Coke agreement, is that a similar agreement that you have with the Pryor plant?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

It's a different agreement. Obviously we are not going to talk about the pricing, but no, it's a totally different agreement in the way the product is priced.

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

So it's contracted by price then and not just volume?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Yes. There is a minimum volume in the contract and is a negotiated pricing formula that as Dan said, we are not going to get into the pricing, but it is for all excess ammonia that's produced at that plant.

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Right. But just looking at the spot markets in ammonia, if we are looking at those spot prices next year, are we going to be able to think about where your pricing falls in?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Well, I mean I think I am going to give a general comment. Typically Tampa is often referenced in price contracts and that's at least a starting point. It maybe some pricing formula we have. I don't know. I just don't want to go into the detail of the pricing.

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

You said, get competitive pricing now relative to spot markets.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Yes. We will get market based pricing.

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Okay. And then just lastly, the El Dorado plant for the fourth quarter. Should we expect those losses to decline in the fourth quarter relative to the third, just given seasonality of demand or I know prices have come down, but natural gas prices have come down also? So how do we think about the losses in the fourth quarter at El Dorado relative to the third quarter?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

I would tell you that I would think that they would be the same.

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Okay.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Keep in mind, we aren't producing ammonia there in the fourth quarter. So natural gas prices have no impact on --

Joe Mondilo

Analyst · Sidoti & Company. Please proceed with your question

Right. You are right. Okay. All right. Thanks.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. Our next question is coming from Gregg Hillman of First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question.

Gregg Hillman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Good morning, gentlemen. Mark, when you were picking a financing partner, did you use an investment banker and like bidded it off to look at multiple ones? Or how did you arrive at Security Benefit Corporation?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

As you probably know, we have worked with CS on multiple occasions over the past two years and so we did work with CS and there was a process that was run and we did have a number of people that were interested and I think we ran an efficient process to try and figure out what were the best terms for us and ultimately we decided that these were the most appropriate terms that management and the Board were comfortable with and we were extremely comfortable, as Dan said, with Security Benefit as a partner.

Gregg Hillman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Okay. Did they have the best, I was just wondering, could you have gone all debt? Why did you have to bring in that the equity piece? Was there somebody willing to go all debt with you?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

If there were someone willing to do it, we would have done it.

Gregg Hillman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Okay. So you feel this is the best deal you have that was on the table? There wasn't a better deal available to you at this time? You didn't just pick them because of relationship? Well, I guess, on what basis did you chose Security?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Look, they had a combination of three things. Number one, they came with a total financing package which in our mind and the Board's mind was an important component and then they put the two components together with us that we thought served as a good basis, either individually or in the aggregate they were very competitive and we did that. We went out and we looked at, as Mark said, Credit Suisse went our and helped us look at multiple different sources. So number one, the total package was the best total package and that was something that we were looking for and they quite frankly came late in the process. But it was a good package. So that was number one. Number two, they believe in the opportunity and the value creation for the company and that was attractive to them. So they showed a strong interest in wanting to participate. And number three, we look at them as long-term focus partners and during the process of their due intelligentsia, they visited every single location and had discussions with plant management and the like. So we just felt like that, that was the type of long-term financing partner that we wanted to have and their rates were the most competitive when you look at it on a total package basis.

Gregg Hillman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Okay. And then just also Mark, in terms of just any other equity dilution that's out there? You mentioned the warrants from Security. But what other warrants or management options are there at this point that would result in further equity dilution?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Well, there is nothing other out there in the form of warrants other than what we have disclosed this morning.

Gregg Hillman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Okay.

Mark Behrman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

There are management options that are out there that have been issued and are outstanding and that's outlined in our public filings. And so there is nothing significant that has changed this quarter. So you will be able to see that.

Gregg Hillman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Okay. That's fine. And just from the top of your head, what are management options right now? What's the average exercise price?

Mark Behrman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

They are in the 30s.

Gregg Hillman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Okay. And what's the number of them?

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

You can look at our public filings. They are out there available in the public filings on the most recent 10-Q. They are having [indiscernible].

Mark Behrman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Yes, I wouldn't know off the top of my head, the exact number.

Gregg Hillman

Analyst · First Wilshire Securities. Please proceed with your question

Okay. That's fine. Thank you.

Operator

Operator

Thank you. At this time, I would like to turn the floor back over to management for any additional or closing comments.

Dan Greenwell

Analyst · Bank of America. Please proceed with your question

Great. Thank you, Donna. Well, first of all, thanks for everyone for participating in this morning's conference call. I think we have outlined things and tried to provide as much clarity as we can. We are optimistic about completing the project. The construction schedule at El Dorado is progressing very, very well and we are pleased with the weekly progress they make. We measure it on a weekly basis at a detailed level on every area. We have a robust process around that. I think the financing that we have secured is going to put us in a good position to complete that construction. As Mark and I both indicated, we look to improve our capital structure cost as soon as we possibly can. And we will focus on that. And then again, the Board is also focused on creating the best shareholder value for the shareholders. And that's something that we will contribute to do and something we are actually looking forward to delivering. So once again, I appreciate your time and have a good day.