Operator
Operator
Good day, and welcome to today's program. It is now my pleasure to turn today's program over to Mr. Doug Fears, Vice President and CFO of Helmerich & Payne. Please go ahead, sir.
Helmerich & Payne, Inc. (HP)
Q2 2009 Earnings Call· Thu, Apr 30, 2009
$39.29
+1.63%
Same-Day
+1.65%
1 Week
+6.91%
1 Month
+18.95%
vs S&P
+10.45%
Operator
Operator
Good day, and welcome to today's program. It is now my pleasure to turn today's program over to Mr. Doug Fears, Vice President and CFO of Helmerich & Payne. Please go ahead, sir.
Doug Fears
Management
Thank you, Katie, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to Helmerich & Payne's conference call and webcast to discuss the company's second quarter earnings. With us today are Hans Helmerich, President and CEO; Executive Vice President, John Lindsay; and Alan Orr and Juan Pablo Tardio, our Director of Investor Relations. As you know, much of the information provided today involves risk and uncertainties that could significantly impact expected results, and that are discussed in our most recent 10-K. We'll also be making reference to certain non-GAAP financial measures, such as segment operating income and operating statistics. You may find the GAAP reconciliation comments and calculations on the last page of today's press release. Today Helmerich & Payne reported net income of $103.7 million or $0.98 per diluted share from operating revenues of just over $520 million for its second quarter, fiscal quarter ended March 31, 2009. This compares with net income of slightly over $102 million or $0.96 per diluted share from operating revenues of over $473 million during the last year's second fiscal quarter. Included in second quarter net income for '09 and '08, were $0.01 and $0.04 respectively of after-tax gains from the sale of portfolio securities and drilling equipment. Also included in this year's second quarter income is approximately $0.47 per share after-tax from the early termination of contracts, relating to new build FlexRigs. As mentioned in the press release, total pre-tax early termination revenue for the second quarter totaled approximately $81 million. Hans and John will have more to say about these early terminated contracts in a few moments. This morning we released specific information, regarding our accounts receivable position in Venezuela, which I'll discuss in just a moment. First of all, let me provide some comments to put this issue in perspective. For fiscal year ended…
Hans Helmerich
Management
Thanks, Doug. Good morning, everyone. At the time of our last conference call, the industry was well into a precipitous down turn. We said then the things could get worse before they got better. Today we will be discussing the falling knife effect still occurring in the domestic rig business. And considering if the knife is still falling is the fall at least slowing down? Well there is simply not enough clarity from our conversations with customers to call at bottom. We know others have particular bottom to occur sometime during the quarter. And while we hope it does, we believe E&P operators still are waiting to see how commodity prices behave in the near term. Their concerns are many. Let me discuss some now. What level of LNG shipments will land in the US? Will demand destruction, the worst level seen in over 35 years begin to flatten and improve? How will natural gas prices, already down 40%, since the first of the year, respond to growing inventory levels and increasing potential of unconventional gas supplies? Will policymakers in Washington D.C. view this new domestic supply potential as a Godsend? Or will they pursue punitive tax changes such as eliminating intangible drilling costs? And finally, when will rig count reductions meaningfully impact production numbers? These uncertainties have result in the worst cyclical downturn, since the early 80s as the industry rig count has fallen by more than half in response to spending reductions. We have been surprised by the impact on our own activity levels. We have received early termination as Doug mentioned on 35 rigs with long-term contracts could have been active since 2006 or 2007 and experienced a very quick decline in our spot market fleet. Today, slightly more than 50% of our US rigs are active.…
John Lindsay
Management
Good morning. Our activity levels today reflect best in class performing spot market and term contract rigs being stacked during 2009. This trend has slowed, but we believe this scenario will continue until operators gain confidence that gas and oil prices to stabilize at economically viable levels. As a result, we are seeing activity declines in all three operating segments of US land, offshore and international and the following comments will analyze each of these segments. In our US land segment as of today, 104 of 205 existing US land rigs are active. Only 17 of the 104 active rigs are currently operating in the spot markets, including 14 FlexRigs. The remaining 87 active rigs, including 80 new builds are under term contracts. Of the 80 new builds that remain under term contracts, 71 are operating, 7 are on reduced standby rates and 2 are in transition to their first location. The 101 rigs that are idle include 34 mobile and conventional rigs, and 67 FlexRigs; 34 of which are early terminated new builds. We have reached 139.2 active rigs during the first fiscal quarter as compared to 177.4 during the previous quarter. On average, 53.6 rigs were idle during the second fiscal quarter as compared to 10.1 idle rigs during the previous quarter. The total income related to early contract terminations now includes about $100 million, already incurred during the first two quarters of this fiscal year, and the $75 million estimated to be incurred going forward. The company estimates that almost 60% or approximately $100 million of this total was originally expected to be incurred during fiscal 2009, regardless of early terminations. Excluding the impact of early terminations for the second fiscal quarter, average rig revenue per day decreased by $1,060 to $24,876. Average rig margin per day…
Doug Fears
Management
Thanks. We'd now like to open the call to questions.
Operator
Operator
(Operator Instructions) We'll take our first question from the side of Mark Brown of Pritchard Capital.
Mark Brown - Pritchard Capital
Analyst
Can you clarify the point on the tax? What is the driving up your effective tax rate, related to how you account for revenues in Venezuela?
Doug Fears
Management
Yes. This is Doug. In Venezuela, regardless of what you do on your US books, you are required to book revenues if you are billing them. You are going to do it on an accrual basis. You cannot just arbitrarily switchover to a cash basis and therefore report negative income or lower income for tax purposes in Venezuela. They are going to make you pay taxes on accrued revenue. With that in mind, even though for accounting purposes here in the US, we are not recording revenue. There is still a tax liability that's accruing in Venezuela, which we then must book for US purposes. At the end of the day, as a US analyst, you don't have the income, but you have got to pay the taxes. So, that is what drove up the effective rate.
Mark Brown - Pritchard Capital
Analyst
Okay. Further rings in that country, do you have any insurance on them? What are your plans potentially to move them somewhere else, or any resale value on those rigs?
Doug Fears
Management
First of all, we cannot comment on the insurance issues. We can't do that. At this particular time, we are stacking rigs, but have no plans to move at this time. We are still in hopes of working that situation out in Venezuela.
Operator
Operator
Our next question will come from the side of Pierre Conner of Capital One.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
First, John, a color on guidance on a number of items, I wanted to try to push a little bit more on the costs; the daily operating cost side on the clean basis, absent, standby etcetera. How much can you work those costs down? Are they going to be fairly sticky? Give us some sequential perspective of where the daily operating cost on US land could go?
John Lindsay
Management
Pierre you said it, there is a lot of moving parts. When you are stacking rigs, you've got stack costs, you've got the personnel side, so I tried to address it. In my comments, there are some efforts, I believe on our supply chain side that are helping us, as you would expect pricing is coming down on certain maintenance and supply items. That's helpful, but at the same time you've got these other moving parts and pieces related to stacking rigs. That's the challenging part. We are hopeful that we are going to be able and be successful to get the costs per day down. We did have a reduction in our labor costs. I think we talked about that in our last call. That was effective going back to our previous September 30 wages. That obviously had an effect in this quarter. It's really hard to say. What I can tell you that we've got a lot of effort going on. We've got a lot of both in the back office as well as the guys on the rig, and focusing on that. So again, we are hopeful that we can at minimum, keep it flat and hopefully drive it down some.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
Going back to the tax question, I understand the mechanics there, but as you idle additional rigs in Venezuela, and then don't record any revenues, cash or otherwise. Should the tax rate then in the out quarters begin to fall in the fourth quarter or going into next year? I mean you said for the remainder of the year.
Doug Fears
Management
The 40.8 is an estimate for the remainder of the year and for the entire year when you mix it altogether, but you are correct. I guess another way to say that is, the less revenue that is generated, but not booked will be means a better effective tax rate. The answer is yes. As you stack rigs and have less activity, generated non-book revenue and then for US tax purposes, for US GAAP purposes, you are better off. So you are correct. It should come down.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
Going to the CapEx question, free cash flow 2010, a significant improvement in free cash, so that maybe the way to ask is, what is the maintenance CapEx on the fleet? And absolutely it varied on how much is active, but this kind of level, how low could that CapEx be?
Juan Pablo Tardio
Analyst
This is Juan Pablo. We could go as low as $100 million or so.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
You don't have a budget for 2010 yet, but is that kind of directionally where you are headed, or that you are just going to add minimum?
Juan Pablo Tardio
Analyst
Just the minimum.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
One last one back to John, are you the most active US land driller yet? How close?
John Lindsay
Management
Seems like a small consolation.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
You sort of gained and your mentioned the Marcellus getting the contract there, but what do you think about your position at Haynesville and some of the higher horsepower equipment? What do you think Helmerich & Payne needs to do to grow some share there or are you comfortable with where you are?
John Lindsay
Management
We had a late start into the Haynesville when the play really started taking off, all of our rigs were committed and our new build schedule is out there. The good news is that lot of the new builds we are delivering now are in fact going to the Haynesville. The timing on that is good. So, we are going to continue to capture some market share there. Once we continue to kind of say this over the past several months is once operators do get into that mode of high-grading and putting rigs back to work, the Flex3 is the perfect fit for the Haynesville. It not only has the horsepower and obviously AC drive and all the features and advantages we have, but the rig also moves very quickly. And when you compare the FlexRig move times to the competitor, in a lot of cases, we are moving the rig twice as fast as as they are. Today I don't know what the average Haynesville well takes. I have seen 45, I have seen 55, I really don't know for sure what it is, but make no mistake, we'll get those days down. When those days get into the 30s and the high 20s, then the rig move time is even that much more important. So I really think that again, as this market moves and people start to gain some confidence when there is a reason to have confidence then we'll have an opportunity to put some rigs to work because we have the Flex3s that are available. Think about, if we've not had Flex3s available on the open market, well in a very long time.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
Actually one more for Doug, and it just had to be on. At one point your expectation for the early termination revenues in the quarter was in the $90 million range and I guess came in at $81 million. And was there fewer cancellations? Is there silver lining in that or just the timing of the payments?
Juan Pablo Tardio
Analyst
This is Juan Pablo. It was combination of things; basically we invoiced over $100 million related to early terminations during the quarter. But we are moving the revenue to future quarters, some of that.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
So just shifting, right. Okay. Thanks, gentlemen.
Operator
Operator
And our next question will come from the side of Waqar Syed of Tristone Capital.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
Good morning. Just on this rig that's going to Marcellus, the new contract. Is it FlexRigs 4s or the 4m?
John Lindsay
Management
It's a Flex3.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
It is a Flex3, it's a bigger rig, okay. And what kind of contract, is it a term contract or short-term contract?
John Lindsay
Management
Waqar, I wish I could tell you more. But based on the contract that we have and agreements that we have in place, we're really not in position to talk about it, now. I can't really talk about the customer or the contract, but from our perspective, it's an attractive contract and I think gives us a lot of opportunities in Marcellus.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
And then your rig in Tunisia, I believe you have agreement for operator to be demobilization, is this correct?
John Lindsay
Management
Yes. I believe we have that in the contract.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
So, would you be moving the rig back by the end of the year? Or you will just wait and see what happens?
Hans Helmerich
Management
I really think, we'll put the rig to work. This is a very recent event, I think we'll put the rig to work and really don't have any intention to send the rig back to the US. There are other areas that have a lot of interest that are much closer, but I think we'll put the rig back to work in North Africa.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
In Venezuela, once all your rigs in Venezuela are stacked, would you see any benefit on the G&A side and what would still be bid on the OpEx line for you people?
Doug Fears
Management
We'll just have to play that by year. Probabilities would be high that we would see reductions on all fronts on those cost, but still a lots of uncertainty, how that's going to unfold. So I hate to be too bold about stating how much or when that's going to happen.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
But can the OpEx go down to zero or it may not go down to zero?
Doug Fears
Management
I'm sorry Waqar, can what go to zero?
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
The daily operating cost, will that go down to zero or will there still be something even if all rigs are stacked.
Doug Fears
Management
Yeah there will be something there, radically reduce the course, but it will be significantly lower.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
And then for the CapEx for 2010, you mentioned maintenance type and the minimum could be $100 million. If I put it another way, on a per-rig-day basis, is it like $800, $900 per-rig-day?
Doug Fears
Management
You are talking about capital expenditures?
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
Just the maintenance CapEx.
Doug Fears
Management
But we are talking about a capitalized amount. Not a field expense.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
The capitalized amount, that is correct.
Doug Fears
Management
So we are still talking what $25 million a quarter, roughly on maintenance CapEx.
Hans Helmerich
Management
We don't look at that on a per-rig, unless you want to take the average and divide it by the active rigs that are expected for 2010. We don't look at it that way, but just the total amount of maintenance CapEx for 2010 might be close to $100 million.
Waqar Syed - Tristone Capital
Analyst
Thank you very much.
Operator
Operator
Our next question will come from the side of Mike Drickamer, from Morgan Keegan.
Mike Drickamer - Morgan Keegan
Analyst
Good morning, guys. Asking the CapEx question one more time. I apologize, if I missed this but of the $850 million for 2009, how much is it related to new build?
Hans Helmerich
Management
About two-thirds of that, Mike.
Mike Drickamer - Morgan Keegan
Analyst
And then on the Flex3, you are setting up to Marcellus, any modifications required to that rig to get it into that market and able to meet the various needs of that market?
John Lindsay
Management
No, Mike. This is John. It is a pretty much standard Flex3 package. There is obviously a lot of discussion about the infrastructure and road infrastructure and challenges there. We have been up there, we have made a lot of trips. Sure, there is some areas that have that but there is a lot of other areas that we work, whether it be in the Rockies, or whether it be in Southeastern Oklahoma or just various places that have very narrow roads. A lot of switch backs and a lot of elevation changes and those types of things that we have been successful with Felx3s. That question that was asked earlier, I think maybe it was Waqar, about the rig type. I do think there is opportunity for the Flex4s in the Marcellus as well as the Flex4m. I think we have a nice offering of rig types for that play, because it is a very, very large area and a lot of different conditions.
Mike Drickamer - Morgan Keegan
Analyst
John, I agree that when E&P companies go back to work, your rigs will probably one of the first one to be picked up, therefore your rig has to be a leading indicator here. But the question I have is if you go back to the previous couple downturn, I know there is a different time back then, but I don't remember that you guys got very much of a premium for your rigs. Do you think, we'll see that again this time or will you be able to maintain the premium for your rigs?
John Lindsay
Management
Again it is all relative but we were getting a premium at that time. And what I recall was anywhere from $2000 to $3000 a day. Of course, we just test all the rigs that we were, we had the Flex1 and the Flex2 and we were building the Flex3s. And the 3s were coming out at $11,000 a day. I think the spot market pricing for a rig was probably $6500 to $7500. So I think we were successful then I think we'll be successful today.
Hans Helmerich
Management
I think, Mike, there is going to be a transition period in any market move, and you’re going to have lots of our rigs and guys that are willing to be very, very aggressive on their pricing. I think most of the pressure will be exerted on the legacy rigs and that's where, as you point out, I think we [farewell] going forward with the type of rig profile that you’re very familiar with. So, I think it will take some time, but there are so many differences between today and prior periods. We really didn't have as an industry, a segmented fleet the way we have today with the availability of the type of rigs we have. As John has mentioned, for the first time ever, those FlexRigs are available to a wide range of customers. Some of the tone of this call, I mean we are very busy today getting in front of new customers and potential folks that are interested in having a chance to use the FlexRig. So, I think as we transition out of this down turn, there will be a sloppy period of time, but I think at the end, the performance and the efficiency will be valued and will be awarded a premium in the market.
Operator
Operator
We'll take our next question from the side of Arun Jayaram from Credit Suisse.
Arun Jayaram - Credit Suisse
Analyst
John, you mentioned that the spot market, if I understand your comments were about 30% below what you are getting in terms of your term contract to suggest something in the 17.5 range. Is that correct characterization of what you said or you’re saying the rigs operate under spot are at 30% below? Just to understand where the current leading edge or spot kind of rates that you are signing? Where that range is today?
John Lindsay
Management
You’ve got the 17.5. That's correct, and that's the average. As you can imagine, putting the rigs to work in the spot markets, which I'm sure you recognize this as a very, very small number of opportunities, but the rigs that we put to work are in a range, and overall, that that's about what they average of those that we have put to work. But there is a range, depending on the capability of the rigs. Obviously the lesser capability rigs in our fleet are in the lower teens and the higher capability rigs are in the higher teens, up to 20,000 a day. So, it’s a range and it is based on capability.
Arun Jayaram - Credit Suisse
Analyst
Historically, if my thinking is correct, the FlexRigs have generally garnered, would you think those are accurate about $4000 to $5000 premiums to your conventional rates. Is that fair?
John Lindsay
Management
Approximately, so. Yes.
Arun Jayaram - Credit Suisse
Analyst
I’m just wondering as utilization has come down, are the FlexRig still maintaining this type of premium? Just trying to say that the FlexRigs are holding this kind of pricing advantage as utilization has come down.
John Lindsay
Management
We are maintaining a pricing premium. But as Hans said earlier, we don't have very many opportunities. There is a premium there. But it's very difficult to compare it to what was going on a year ago, and in 2002 or 2003, I mean it's dramatically different environment. I do think that people recognize. Some operators that have not had the opportunity to use the FlexRig today have an opportunity, and they see the value proposition. So they are going to pay the premium to what they would pay for a conventional rig or some other competitor rig. The question is what is the premium? And it's all over the board. A lot of that depends on the plays, it depends on you know, is it a 15 or 20 day well. It’s just a lot of different variables.
Arun Jayaram - Credit Suisse
Analyst
Last question regards Venezuela. Hans, is the collectability issues that you are citing, is this more of PDVSA and not having the means or is this more of a function of them trying to negotiate getting or paying a portion of the receivables out there to try to get lower dayrates on work that’s performed.
Hans Helmerich
Management
I think it’s the first issue. I think they have like the whole industry has, I think in particular they’ve had difficulty transitioning from the high prices we saw last July to where we are today. And, I think the other point is we’ve been in discussions with other oilfield service players down there and our situation is very similar to that. So, from just stepping back and looking at it, it's an industry group that PDVSA needs to continue to team with and work with, and we think that because of that, it's in everyone's mutual interest to work through this time. It's been a difficult period, and frustrating but at the same time we would anticipate we work through it and have a chance to get back to work.
Operator
Operator
Your next question is from the side of John Daniel of Simmons & Company. John Daniel - Simmons & Company: For the new goals that are being delayed, can you tell us how you are being compensated on that?
Hans Helmerich
Management
In dollars. John Daniel - Simmons & Company: Is it a function of lower dayrate extended term? Just trying to better understand it.
Hans Helmerich
Management
The answer, John, is we really can't. We have as I think people know, 16 rigs remaining, we’ve got manufacturing that will extend through this calendar year. As we have said to you and other folks to follow us, our mission is to keep this on a net present value neutral basis. We continue to do that. At the same time, we are cooperating and working with customers. So to give you any more granularity, I think wouldn't be appropriate. John Daniel - Simmons & Company: On other thing, just on the spot rates versus the term rates, is there a material difference in the cost per day? I don't know if you answered it earlier in the call and I apologize, if you did.
Hans Helmerich
Management
No there is not.
Operator
Operator
Follow-up question from Pierre Conner of Capital One.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
For John, relative customer behavior in the Barnett and you might shed light on the perspective of uncompleted wells; it would seem that equipment is well-suited to batch drilling and [wading]. What do you know about that? Are the FlexRigs suitable to come back in the completion mode? Would they be picked up things replace by potentially a service rig?
John Lindsay
Management
Pierre, I'm not aware in a large way, of wells being drilled in the Barnett, and not completed. I'm not saying that they are not. I just don't recall hearing that. I am aware that there's some of that, that's going on in the [peeon], but I'm not necessarily aware of it in the Barnett. I think what does the Flex4s, would offer in the Barnett in that case, if there were, is that the rig could come in and complete the well and then drilling other series of wells on pad. As we have seen how this development process has gone, in a lot of cases, an operator will have a well or will have a location, he'll have a well or two on it. And then the Flex4s would come in, and then drill additional wells, whether it be two or three or in peeons could be an additional 10 or 15. So I think the rig is well-suited for that because it has the ability to get over the top of the wellheads and those types of things. I do think that it's applicable. I'm sorry. I can't really answer the question on the uncompleted wells because I really haven't heard that.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
Well, it actually is helpful. I guess mechanic supply on these pads and the peeons, so that is what I was looking for. And then the other follow-up was the character of the rigs that you put back to work off of spot and FlexRigs that I think you noted John equal to couple. Were those replacements of older rigs or were they enticed by the customer seen better spot rates? It was an economics and they started up again or because of the availability did they replace the competitor's rig?
John Lindsay
Management
I think we put eight rigs, eight FlexRigs to work. Most of them are Flex3s. They are all smaller customers. They are all new customers. And to my knowledge in each case, it was a replacement of a competitor's rig that was not performing at the levels that they would have liked to have seen. We see that trend; we see it as a potential growing trend. That's a great opportunity for us because if you look at our customer base today, we have been able to find a lot of new customers. I think at the peak we had about 29 FlexRig customers and today I think we have 35 FlexRig customers. So, we have actually grown the customer base in terms of the number of operators. Fortunately, the rig counts are not at where we'd like to see it, but the number is going in the right direction in terms of customers. Again I think that's a positive trend for us.
Pierre Conner - Capital One
Analyst
Both of those are very helpful. Thanks, John.
Operator
Operator
(Operator Instructions) We'll take our next question from the side of Monroe Helm of CM Energy Partners.
Monroe Helm - CM Energy Partners
Analyst
The FlexRigs that going back to work that you just mentioned, would you characterize it, within that average you talked about before going to work in the high-teens or 20, kind of thousand dollars a day range.
John Lindsay
Management
Monroe, this is John. They are in a range that range that I had mentioned where you are talking the lower teens up to the high-teens to right at 20.
Monroe Helm - CM Energy Partners
Analyst
So they are within that entire range not just the top-end of the range?
John Lindsay
Management
Again you look at a FlexRig1or Flex2, Flex1 that maybe doesn't have a top drive, doesn't have the same capability as the Flex3, so again it's kind of back to that rig capability question and what kind of performance are you able to deliver in the field.
Monroe Helm - CM Energy Partners
Analyst
And the question for Hans, since you (inaudible) the biggest downturn in rig activity since we have seen in the early 80s, do you think lot of the rigs that were operating at the peak here not too many months ago will never get to work again. How would you view in the next up cycle? What's going to happen to all these rigs working before? Were they all tried to stay and be competitive? Or do you think lot of them will be let down in the [weeks] permanently?
Hans Helmerich
Management
It is a good question, Monroe. It is trying to describe what the new normal will look like once we get off this deteriorating environment, but I think you and I talked about in '07 when 400 industry rigs went down, we said at that time we thought a lot of those would struggle to go back to work and in fact probably half went back to work at the peak. I have got to think the pressure only intensifies on legacy equipment going forward. It's hard to know what the new normal is in terms of do we ever get back to a 2000 rig count? Maybe some day, but I would suspect not for a long time. Again, the customer has had enough time with high efficiency rigs and their performance to have that be their strong preference. And if their 350 plus, maybe 400 of those types of rigs, I think they get the first chance to return to work. And I do think, we are really getting at a point where the obsolescence factor have sets in, in a somewhat of a tough way going forward. I think the answer is yes, I think a lot of pressure gets exerted on those legacy rigs.
Monroe Helm - CM Energy Partners
Analyst
Thanks again for your comments.
Operator
Operator
We'll take our next question from the side of [Blake Lovelace of Breeden Capital].
Unidentified Analyst
Analyst
My main question has been answered. I do have a quick follow-up. With regards to Venezuela, if you were getting paid as expected, based on the rigs going down in current revenues, what would be total receivable and billings to be versus the 116 today?
Doug Fears
Management
Blake, this is Doug. I'm not sure I understand your question.
Unidentified Analyst
Analyst
In other words, Venezuela is approximately 116 today and if they were current on all their payments, what would that number be?
Doug Fears
Management
I'll take a shot at that. It will be wrong. But I think, I hear the essence of your question. First of all, sort of a normal is for them, is in the kind of a four month of billing cycle. But if they really got caught up, there might still be 30 million, 20 million, somewhere in there.
Unidentified Analyst
Analyst
That's very helpful. That exactly what I was looking for.
Operator
Operator
We'll take our next question from the side of Bob Schwerin of Schwerin Boyle Capital Management.
Bob Schwerin - Schwerin Boyle Capital Management
Analyst
You mentioned that while your pre-payments keep you pretty much present value neutral that you would obviously rather keep the rigs and the crews working. So what are you doing with the crews, in particular? And when and if things started picking up are you going to be back in the same problem of trying to retrain crews all over again?
John Lindsay
Management
Bob this is John. It goes back to the discussion earlier on costs and one of the challenges and unfortunately we have lots of experiences with this over last ten years in having to bump people back. But effectively, you bump people back in position, you keep your most senior, your most experienced people, typically the employees that are laid off are the people, the newest in, the less experience, and the floor hand level if you will. Obviously, you do get to a point where you could start cutting into the bone and that's what we are trying to prevent and that is part of the cost driver in a market like this. Again, you want to hang on to our best people. We have been successful in doing this in the past. I think the folks that have been around H&P long time have seen it and they appreciate the efforts that we're able to keep people busy. So that's what we are doing is we are continuing keep people busy but they are having to work back in a position. They in some cases may be get bumped back to a rig hand for some period of time.
Hans Helmerich
Management
The only thing I would add to that, Bob, is we have had a little bit of relief with the new bills we have rolled off, because prior to a downturn, we would have gone out and recruited and trained folks. We have used that as a buffer for our established people. And I think the other thing I would say is no one has matched the level of rollout that we achieved. And then also, the amount of training and the ability to bring people in to an organization and get them up to where they are hitting on all eight cylinders. So, I think we do that better than anybody and that will serve as well in an improving environment. But you are hitting on something that we think a lot about, the very toughest thing about this downturn for us are the people that have been impacted. We think our organizational strength is our leading asset. So it's something that we come to work with every morning on trying to work through and manage and it hadn't been easy, but again we are putting a lot of effort into it.
Bob Schwerin - Schwerin Boyle Capital Management
Analyst
Do you actually keep people on the payroll, who aren't even working at all or just who have them in reserve?
Hans Helmerich
Management
Our first efforts are rotating guys through. So we'll have crews that are made up of primarily rig managers and drillers. And for a period of time, at 90 days or so, we keep those guys at their prior pay level. So there is a certain holding and those will be the people that mentor and teach new guys when we get to that stage. It's a balance and unfortunately, we can't afford just inventory guys. So that's balance we face.
John Lindsay
Management
Bob, one other thing that may help you as well is to think about in general. I think H&P, we have less turn over than most, but in a given year, when activity is at a normal level, we'll have an annualized turnover rate at that entry level position of anywhere from 70% to 80% annualized turnover. So again, what we are doing is, as you are bumping people back then essentially you are eliminating that turnover and that need to hire people. We also have maintenance teams in place. Again, when you are stacking rigs, you’ve got to have people to make sure that you are maintaining your assets in a proper way. That was my point earlier when we talk about a lot of moving parts on this cost piece.
Operator
Operator
It appears that we have one last question. It’s a follow-up from Arun Jayaram from Credit Suisse.
Arun Jayaram - Credit Suisse
Analyst
You mentioned that you are changing the accounting on the Atwood stake. Can you give us a little bit of your thoughts on reducing you go from two to one, forward seed? And does the change in accounting perhaps suggest that you may consider monetizing this investment at some point over the next foreseeable future? Does the accounting change relate to that or?
Hans Helmerich
Management
It doesn't directly relate to it Arun. As you might remember, George Dotson and I have been on that board for a long time. So when George retired, he is now fully independent or whatever the term is. So that's what relates to now just the one. We’ve said before that our Atwood holding, we look at it as something that we eventually will monetize. Then we’ve sold a million shares of Atwood, I want to say, a couple of years ago. I wish, like a lot of things, I would have picked the high this time around and we would have looked at monetizing some more of that, but that's something that will be an ongoing consideration in terms of eventually transferring those assets into our own operating assets.
Arun Jayaram - Credit Suisse
Analyst
But it sounds like there is change, and that can be more driven by George's retirement, et cetera.
Hans Helmerich
Management
Yeah. I think that's right.
Operator
Operator
This concludes today's question and answer portion. Now, I’d like to turn it back over to Doug Fears for any closing comments.
Doug Fears
Management
Thank you, Katie. Our next Earnings Call is scheduled for July 30th. We'd like to thank you all for joining us today. We look forward to communicating with you at that time. Have a good day.
Operator
Operator
This concludes today's teleconference. You may disconnect at any time. Thank you and have a great day.