Dan Lee
Analyst · Deutsche Bank. Please go ahead.
Well, it's actually hard to look at our leverage because as kind of the way we've been developing this, we borrowed all the money up in advance to build both American Place and Chamonix. And so now we're about to open all that. And so if you were to look at trailing 12-month earnings compared to debt, it looks like we're over levered. And if you look ahead and say, well, what are earnings likely to be in, say, 2025 versus our leverage, we're probably under levered. And I think as we grow in our scale here, you won't see as big a swings on that. Our obligation to build the permanent American Place will not be as big a jump because the company is bigger as we did last time, I mean, when we went, let's say, we built what to be about the $500 million worth of stuff on the backs of casinos that we're doing $40 million of EBDIT. Now we're going to be doing and taking the American Place in Chamonix and comparing it to the traditional casinos. And if you look at now with Chamonix and The Temporary and the other places and the sports books and you look at building the permanent American Place would be less levered. And by the way, Lewis and I have been doing this a long time. And at Mirage Resorts, when I got there was pretty heavily levered. We had the Mirage, and we levered, we borrowed more money built Treasury. It was successful. Then we borrowed more money, built Bellagio and Boreas, and they were successful. And along the way, we became investment grade. It was the industry's first investment-grade company. But we grew our way into it. And at Pinnacle, we did the same thing. I mean the properties we inherited at Pinnacle, we were able to double their results just by big better managers. And then we built LaBears and then we've built the 2 properties in St. Louis. And each time we borrow the money, build something, get good returns on investment and that would reduce the leverage. And so when we get to this company eight, nine years ago, I mean, it was pretty levered, and we've already reduced the leverage. And when this stuff when Chamonix gets open and so on, if you do it right, it's a win-win. In other words, shareholders are getting good returns, employees are getting good growth opportunities. But bondholders also do well because you end up getting upgraded, you end up calling the bonds before the maturity and nobody loses. And I can plan it that way. Legally, I guess, management and the Board is only obligated to shareholders. But in my mind, we have all these constituencies and the lenders are certainly a big part of that, and we've always taken care on every aspect.